Fuck PEGI, their ratings always sucked and weren’t useful at all. Full blown swearing? 13+. One cigar through 500 hours of gameplay? Adults only. Never cared, never will.
He probably forgot to funnel millions of dollars to non-profits and businesses adjacent to PEGI decisionmakers and their family members. Rookie mistake.
I’m happy to lobby for the balatro dev once he posts on a federated media (real fed, not bluesky).
Personally, I don’t care if balatro is popular here, the pegi 18 rating will impact sales 0%. Also, FC24s gambling should be banned EU wide or the rating of the game should be upped to 18+. Better yet, we should use this Balatro slip up from PEGI to get FC24s rating to be revised to 18+
I still wonder why the hell is this game classified as a roguelike? It’s poker mixed with MTG. Also, why are you crying dude? You made a literal slot machine.
That’s why he said roguelite. Semipermanency (being able to unlock upgrades for future runs) is what separates the roguelite from a roguelike. In a roguelike, every run you start from 0, in a roguelite you unlock things that make differences in future runs (in the case of balatro: different decks, new jokers, …)
Hngh. Balatro already had a bunch of hassle on Switch eShop due to the PEGI ratings change.
Earlier, Nintendo somehow got a PEGI 12 rating for 51 Worldwide Games, which includes poker and blackjack. I wonder what they argued to avoid the 18 rating. “Sure, this compilation has poker and blackjack, but it’s not like we made it fun.” (It’s adequate but compared to Balatro it’s very much a non-frills experience.)
“sure our game has gambling elements, but we’re Nintendo so shut the fuck up and give us a better rating because you’re a private company in the business of giving ratings”
Wut? Pan European Game Information (PEGI) is the European equivalent of ESRB. Their ratings matter because they have an obvious bias against indies, which hurts their sales.
I mean the point of all rating systems in the US was fear of government regulation of content and having to fight that particular legal battle. It basically exists because moral busybodies were upset about Night Trap, Mortal Kombat and Doom.
this is starting to be horseshit. Every windows computer has a version of fucking solitare on it , there are other card based games that don’t get this treatment, and the lootboxes are actual gambling.
I thought at the start it was a type of beurocratical problem, but it’s been too long.
That would be the point, yes. Balatro has cards and chips, but chips are just there for keeping points. If Balatro is 18+ for gambling imagery, then so should Solitaire. That would be stupid, so Balatro shouldn’t get it, either.
I think the important note is it’s not just the cards in Balatro. Is it right? Not in my opinion. You have to admit tho, that it uses waaaaay more gambling imagery (you make antes for fuck’s sake)
It’s near the line, I agree, I see your point, but it’s just the terminology and no gambling mechanics. You don’t set the ante, you just play. They could change the name ante to level and it would be the same. It’s not like you look at your stuff and decide how much you’re willing to risk. (You could argue skipping blinds is this sort of risk analysis like gambling but that’s hardly unique to Balatro.) There is no benefit from stopping earlier because if you lose on ante one or lose on ante seven it’s the same outcome. Also, if you choose to restart one ante one or ante seven it’s the same outcome. Because it’s just a score keeping mechanism. Nothing more.
The game is literally made up of gambling imagery. From cards to chips to terms, the whole fuckin 9 yards. MY POINT IS ITS NOT GAMBLING, ITS GAMBLING IMAGERY.
I prefaced the whole fuckin statement I started with with saying it’s bullshit. DESPITE THAT BULLSHIT THE LABEL IS NOT INCORRECT. I hope you can stop being fucking obtuse and see my point after I’ve rephrased it multiple times.
“Antes” are what Balatro calls its levels. Each level consists of 3 stages, which the game calls “blinds” (small/big/boss).
In poker, you don’t “beat” an ante, it’s part of what you bet. You also don’t “reach” blinds, nor is there such a thing as a “boss blind” in poker. And the word “bet” or any synonym should be pretty conspicuous by its absence in Balatro’s description. There is no gambling without betting/wagering, after all.
So yes, if you’re familiar with poker, that description should make it obvious that the words have different meanings in the game than they do in poker.
The only actual ‘mechanic’ that’s actually the same in Balatro as in poker is what comprises the different hands, and their relative value. And even then, there are also hands in Balatro that don’t exist in poker at all (five of a kind, flush house, etc.).
The term Ante in the game is used instead of “round” or “level”. It’s a measure of how far you’ve gotten. Each “ante” is made up of three “stakes”, point totals you need to beat in a set number of hands played and cards discarded.
There’s no aspect of choosing how much you risk, of “ante-ing up”, or how much you stake. You either beat the points goal (called “chips”) or you lose. There’s no playing of your hand against other hands, bluffing about how good your hand may be to convince others to fold, etc. It’s just you against the score goal. If you beat it faster than the amount of hands you’re given to work with you get extra rewards.
The game has no elements where you stake chips for rewards or anything like that. It borrows basic elements of scoring mechanics from poker, and uses a lot of poker terms for other purposes, but the closest part to gambling is the ability to buy random card packs between rounds (to customize your deck instead of just having the standard 52 card deck).
In between rounds you have access to buy various things to add further modifiers to your scoring, and to adjust the composition of your deck in order to make getting specific combinations more likely.
You can learn most of this in about 5 minutes with the demo, or by taking some time to watch someone else play on youtube.
Minor correction, the three stages in an “ante” are the “blinds”. The game instead uses “stake” to describe its ‘ascension’ system (a common mechanic in roguelixe games, where going to a higher ascension/“stake” adds difficulty modifiers to the game, for those who don’t know what I mean by that).
But it has to be for something. And in Balatro, there simply isn’t any gambling. You never wager anything to win anything based on that wager. All you have are points, and you can neither wager them, nor lose them in any way, chance-based or otherwise.
Not entirely sure about the European PEGI, but the American ESRB is funded by the same companies that it regulates. It was created after the outcry about violent games and was the industry self-regulating to avoid the government getting more involved.
It is a lobby group for the industry, for better and in this case very much for worse.
PEGI and many other groups are private groups. They’re not an authority of any form. They’re not associated with government, public regulation, or public election. They’re a group of people that create their own standards outside of the ISO or any actual regulation representing the public.
Some countries do have actual public systems, but many just have these private groups that know best.
This is all well and true, but it’s important to note that these organizations exist as a sidestep to regulation, they are formed by industry insiders as a promise to the regulators that they will be honest about how they rate games (or movies or music) so that the government doesn’t actually get involved and do it’s job.
It’s a form of regulatory capture that allows the industry itself to decide what is harmful to us.
It’s basically the definition of conflict of interest.
They’re private groups that do the ratings but ESRB is enforced by laws in some Canadian provinces for instance and PEGI is enforced by law in some European countries. They do have a de facto authority in those places as a publisher can’t just decide to disregard their ratings and sell to minors anyway or something.
In Austria PEGI is “enforced” in Vienna while USK is “enforced” in Salzburg (and Germany, the reason why they buy all their games here). And PEGI might be shit, but USK is a million times worse.
German Authorities (technically not USK but USK is affiliated to them completely banned Wolfenstein, Dying Light, etc. Not 18+ or whatever it’s straight up illegal to promote or openly sell them in Germany.
i got curious and looks like PEGI is somewhat similar at least. The ISFE is a self-regulating/co-regulating (w/e that means) body. There seem to be some kinda independent audits but… Looks like they don’t audit so good, if this article is evidence
but… Looks like they don’t audit so good, if this article is evidence
That’s the whole issue with it being a lobby group. It makes them a ton of money, so they are incentivised against making a rating for it because that would draw more attention/limit sales.
And that’s where the whole government lobbying part comes in.
Eeeeh, at least then there would theoretically be public accountability. The FCC has limited censorship power that they’re generally unobjectionable with.
I’m honestly more concerned with the censorship from private enterprises than with government consorship currently. Less accountability and less recourse.
It also really only becomes censorship if the rating system is used to prohibit speech. If we instead made it more like the nutritional guidelines on food it could instead give more of a content breakdown than setting an arbitrary age.
I largely agree, but the interests have gotten misaligned. Back then it was the threat of regulation which changed things up, I think the governments should do a little more of that.
Because, unfortunately, millions of people still use it. If you’re selling a product, it’s in your best interest to have as much social media presence as possible.
Also, it’s better to have an official presence on those platforms so others can’t impersonate you as easily.
If you’ve ever made a thing that took so much time that it has to be your job, and earn you money, you’d likely have a different view. If you’re ignoring a percentage of your target market because they’re on a platform you don’t like, then your project might fail, and you don’t get to keep your house.
If your stated downside to still using Twitter is that it’s a waste of time, is that invalidated if your posting tool posts to all of your socials with one click? Like most professional social media users that have to maintain a bunch of channels with the same content?
Also, who is being dramatic about how important it is to be on or off twitter?
Ok… but his thing can actually happen… your version of the bad things that can happen for still also posting news to twitter is all imaginary stuff that doesn’t happen in real life. Being upset about the direction Twitter and Reddit took and are taking is a totally valid, and honestly the objectively correct position to have about it. But adding in imaginary penalties for using it is not.
Twitter is by far the larger platform, and small independent creators have to work to promote their game on every platform they can, if they want to succeed. The moral high ground of not using undesirable social media sites is nice, but isn’t fair to people who are partially dependent on those platforms to make a living.
Also, the simple fact is that there is no reason that any entity promoting their product has to choose any of these platforms over the other–you can just post to all of them, every single one that has enough users to be worth posting to.
I’ve seen several small creators say they get 10 times the engagement on Bluesky. That includes sales through promo links, which can’t be faked. It’s becoming clear that X’s numbers are mostly illusory at this point.
It can’t be that easy. PEGI says that games containing gambling (real money or not) are rated with PEGI 12 to 18. So there must be something else to the game that led to this rating.
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Fuck PEGI, their ratings always sucked and weren’t useful at all. Full blown swearing? 13+. One cigar through 500 hours of gameplay? Adults only. Never cared, never will.
Violence and gore? 13+. Some boobs? Adults only.
Killing good, love bad.
If anybody knows about love it’s rimjob_rainer.
And people pretend that only American ratings systems pull this kind of bullshit.
He probably forgot to funnel millions of dollars to non-profits and businesses adjacent to PEGI decisionmakers and their family members. Rookie mistake.
I would give proprietary software 18+ rating too, nobody know what’s inside.
I’m happy to lobby for the balatro dev once he posts on a federated media (real fed, not bluesky).
Personally, I don’t care if balatro is popular here, the pegi 18 rating will impact sales 0%. Also, FC24s gambling should be banned EU wide or the rating of the game should be upped to 18+. Better yet, we should use this Balatro slip up from PEGI to get FC24s rating to be revised to 18+
I don’t doubt that some weird ultra religious family will ban Balatro in their house because of that.
I’m hopelessly addicted to gatcha. When I saw this I bought Balatro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46MQ1ZMZ-l4
3 and older game.
Gotta love how they saved the literal slot machine for a minute in to the video so it wouldn’t be too obvious.
Just right up front with the card pack gambling mechanic.
I still wonder why the hell is this game classified as a roguelike? It’s poker mixed with MTG. Also, why are you crying dude? You made a literal slot machine.
It has rouge features of building up a lot of utility in each run
No, rouge is the stuff that ladies put on their cheeks. You mean rogue, as in wildcard, untameable, privateer.
Yes thank you
Semi-permanency is not a defining feature of roguelikes, in most of them every run starts from scratch.
That’s why he said roguelite. Semipermanency (being able to unlock upgrades for future runs) is what separates the roguelite from a roguelike. In a roguelike, every run you start from 0, in a roguelite you unlock things that make differences in future runs (in the case of balatro: different decks, new jokers, …)
Examples:
Hades is a roguelite.
Shattered Pixel Dungeon is a roguelike.
Hngh. Balatro already had a bunch of hassle on Switch eShop due to the PEGI ratings change.
Earlier, Nintendo somehow got a PEGI 12 rating for 51 Worldwide Games, which includes poker and blackjack. I wonder what they argued to avoid the 18 rating. “Sure, this compilation has poker and blackjack, but it’s not like we made it fun.” (It’s adequate but compared to Balatro it’s very much a non-frills experience.)
I believe 51 Games came out right before the stricter PEGI policy. Same year at least. The whole thing is very silly.
“sure our game has gambling elements, but we’re Nintendo so shut the fuck up and give us a better rating because you’re a private company in the business of giving ratings”
Why should we care what a talking horse pseudo-plinco game thinks should be the age rating of their competitors?
It’s a good question
That’s the fun part, you don’t have to care. The first and only step is to just keep scrolling—better luck next time.
Wut? Pan European Game Information (PEGI) is the European equivalent of ESRB. Their ratings matter because they have an obvious bias against indies, which hurts their sales.
I was jokingly referring to PEGGLE
Ah. I’m guessing most people missed the joke :)
Yeah they should’ve gone with Hank Hill’s wife
Balatro is a hard drug worse than heroin. We need to protect our kids from the bottomless pit of roguelite games
Thank God it’s ten dollars.
I almost downloaded it.
If you’ve ever spent money on a movie theatre ticket, you value your time at $7-$20 dollars an hour. This… is thousands of hours of entertainment.
I’m not saying it’s not worth ten dollars.
I just don’t feel like spending ten dollars.
So, you’re suggesting we make games per hour subscription? A good idea /s
Are all game rating systems just complete and utter garbage? Dare you to find a good one.
Critiquing Doge on steam
The ESRB isn’t awful, it’s not perfect of course, but I think it’s pretty dang good for what it is.
I mean the point of all rating systems in the US was fear of government regulation of content and having to fight that particular legal battle. It basically exists because moral busybodies were upset about Night Trap, Mortal Kombat and Doom.
Yes, this is true. And I think the industry managed to pull together a pretty decent one.
this is starting to be horseshit. Every windows computer has a version of fucking solitare on it , there are other card based games that don’t get this treatment, and the lootboxes are actual gambling.
I thought at the start it was a type of beurocratical problem, but it’s been too long.
did you just compare solitaire to gambling?
That would be the point, yes. Balatro has cards and chips, but chips are just there for keeping points. If Balatro is 18+ for gambling imagery, then so should Solitaire. That would be stupid, so Balatro shouldn’t get it, either.
I think the important note is it’s not just the cards in Balatro. Is it right? Not in my opinion. You have to admit tho, that it uses waaaaay more gambling imagery (you make antes for fuck’s sake)
It’s near the line, I agree, I see your point, but it’s just the terminology and no gambling mechanics. You don’t set the ante, you just play. They could change the name ante to level and it would be the same. It’s not like you look at your stuff and decide how much you’re willing to risk. (You could argue skipping blinds is this sort of risk analysis like gambling but that’s hardly unique to Balatro.) There is no benefit from stopping earlier because if you lose on ante one or lose on ante seven it’s the same outcome. Also, if you choose to restart one ante one or ante seven it’s the same outcome. Because it’s just a score keeping mechanism. Nothing more.
You literally do not make antes in Balatro, in any way.
You should know that you’re talking about before drawing conclusions.
Do you know what gambling imagery entails? It doesn’t have to be how antes actually are used in poker for it to be gambling imagery.
A game just has to show characters gambling for it to be gambling imagery. It doesn’t even have to be anything more than a level in a casino.
Okay. Well, Balatro doesn’t do that–no gambling of any kind happens in the game.
So, what’s your point, exactly?
The game is literally made up of gambling imagery. From cards to chips to terms, the whole fuckin 9 yards. MY POINT IS ITS NOT GAMBLING, ITS GAMBLING IMAGERY.
I prefaced the whole fuckin statement I started with with saying it’s bullshit. DESPITE THAT BULLSHIT THE LABEL IS NOT INCORRECT. I hope you can stop being fucking obtuse and see my point after I’ve rephrased it multiple times.
I haven’t played or watched Balataro but from the description on steam
Unless ante here is referring to something else it seems it does have them?
“Antes” are what Balatro calls its levels. Each level consists of 3 stages, which the game calls “blinds” (small/big/boss).
In poker, you don’t “beat” an ante, it’s part of what you bet. You also don’t “reach” blinds, nor is there such a thing as a “boss blind” in poker. And the word “bet” or any synonym should be pretty conspicuous by its absence in Balatro’s description. There is no gambling without betting/wagering, after all.
So yes, if you’re familiar with poker, that description should make it obvious that the words have different meanings in the game than they do in poker.
The only actual ‘mechanic’ that’s actually the same in Balatro as in poker is what comprises the different hands, and their relative value. And even then, there are also hands in Balatro that don’t exist in poker at all (five of a kind, flush house, etc.).
Firstly you could read user names before going off, I was simply asking a question that Im unwilling to buy the game to answer.
The term Ante in the game is used instead of “round” or “level”. It’s a measure of how far you’ve gotten. Each “ante” is made up of three “stakes”, point totals you need to beat in a set number of hands played and cards discarded.
There’s no aspect of choosing how much you risk, of “ante-ing up”, or how much you stake. You either beat the points goal (called “chips”) or you lose. There’s no playing of your hand against other hands, bluffing about how good your hand may be to convince others to fold, etc. It’s just you against the score goal. If you beat it faster than the amount of hands you’re given to work with you get extra rewards.
The game has no elements where you stake chips for rewards or anything like that. It borrows basic elements of scoring mechanics from poker, and uses a lot of poker terms for other purposes, but the closest part to gambling is the ability to buy random card packs between rounds (to customize your deck instead of just having the standard 52 card deck).
In between rounds you have access to buy various things to add further modifiers to your scoring, and to adjust the composition of your deck in order to make getting specific combinations more likely.
You can learn most of this in about 5 minutes with the demo, or by taking some time to watch someone else play on youtube.
Minor correction, the three stages in an “ante” are the “blinds”. The game instead uses “stake” to describe its ‘ascension’ system (a common mechanic in roguelixe games, where going to a higher ascension/“stake” adds difficulty modifiers to the game, for those who don’t know what I mean by that).
Agreed, gambling doesn’t have to be for money or even anything tangibly real.
But it has to be for something. And in Balatro, there simply isn’t any gambling. You never wager anything to win anything based on that wager. All you have are points, and you can neither wager them, nor lose them in any way, chance-based or otherwise.
There is zero gambling in Balatro.
It’s as much related to gambling as Balatro is.
Not entirely sure about the European PEGI, but the American ESRB is funded by the same companies that it regulates. It was created after the outcry about violent games and was the industry self-regulating to avoid the government getting more involved.
It is a lobby group for the industry, for better and in this case very much for worse.
I assume PEGI is little different.
To clarify: the ESRB is the rating arm. The ESA that runs it? That’s the lobbying arm.
PEGI and many other groups are private groups. They’re not an authority of any form. They’re not associated with government, public regulation, or public election. They’re a group of people that create their own standards outside of the ISO or any actual regulation representing the public.
Some countries do have actual public systems, but many just have these private groups that know best.
This is all well and true, but it’s important to note that these organizations exist as a sidestep to regulation, they are formed by industry insiders as a promise to the regulators that they will be honest about how they rate games (or movies or music) so that the government doesn’t actually get involved and do it’s job.
It’s a form of regulatory capture that allows the industry itself to decide what is harmful to us.
It’s basically the definition of conflict of interest.
They’re private groups that do the ratings but ESRB is enforced by laws in some Canadian provinces for instance and PEGI is enforced by law in some European countries. They do have a de facto authority in those places as a publisher can’t just decide to disregard their ratings and sell to minors anyway or something.
In Austria PEGI is “enforced” in Vienna while USK is “enforced” in Salzburg (and Germany, the reason why they buy all their games here). And PEGI might be shit, but USK is a million times worse.
USK rated Balatro with a minimum age of 12 because of “elements resembling gambling”. Sounds more reasonable to me than the PEGI rating.
German Authorities (technically not USK but USK is affiliated to them completely banned Wolfenstein, Dying Light, etc. Not 18+ or whatever it’s straight up illegal to promote or openly sell them in Germany.
I can kind of understand Wolfenstein, as Germany does seem to have this thing where they do and also don’t want to face their past.
But Dying light is a generic zombie game.
i got curious and looks like PEGI is somewhat similar at least. The ISFE is a self-regulating/co-regulating (w/e that means) body. There seem to be some kinda independent audits but… Looks like they don’t audit so good, if this article is evidence
That’s the whole issue with it being a lobby group. It makes them a ton of money, so they are incentivised against making a rating for it because that would draw more attention/limit sales.
And that’s where the whole government lobbying part comes in.
Right i was just clarifying what i learned about PEGIs setup, that it seems similar to the US’s ESRB. I’m a yank and didn’t know before looking either
In fairness, I would much rather that than governments directly controlling access, creating an additional form of direct censorship.
Not saying what we have now is great or anything though. I’m not exactly defending it.
Eeeeh, at least then there would theoretically be public accountability. The FCC has limited censorship power that they’re generally unobjectionable with.
I’m honestly more concerned with the censorship from private enterprises than with government consorship currently. Less accountability and less recourse.
It also really only becomes censorship if the rating system is used to prohibit speech. If we instead made it more like the nutritional guidelines on food it could instead give more of a content breakdown than setting an arbitrary age.
I largely agree, but the interests have gotten misaligned. Back then it was the threat of regulation which changed things up, I think the governments should do a little more of that.
That’s basically why the ESRB was created, it was “Self-Regulate, or we’re just going to ban 80% of games on the market as a scapegoat for Columbine!”
Luigi Mangione played Among Us, an assassination game!
Why is he still using Twitter? Does he want a bunch of Nazis replying to him?
Because, unfortunately, millions of people still use it. If you’re selling a product, it’s in your best interest to have as much social media presence as possible.
Also, it’s better to have an official presence on those platforms so others can’t impersonate you as easily.
deleted by creator
If you’ve ever made a thing that took so much time that it has to be your job, and earn you money, you’d likely have a different view. If you’re ignoring a percentage of your target market because they’re on a platform you don’t like, then your project might fail, and you don’t get to keep your house.
deleted by creator
If your stated downside to still using Twitter is that it’s a waste of time, is that invalidated if your posting tool posts to all of your socials with one click? Like most professional social media users that have to maintain a bunch of channels with the same content?
Also, who is being dramatic about how important it is to be on or off twitter?
deleted by creator
Ok… but his thing can actually happen… your version of the bad things that can happen for still also posting news to twitter is all imaginary stuff that doesn’t happen in real life. Being upset about the direction Twitter and Reddit took and are taking is a totally valid, and honestly the objectively correct position to have about it. But adding in imaginary penalties for using it is not.
Then there should also be a version of the post on Mastodon, and this post should be a screenshot of that one.
Twitter can reach various community from variety of region, like English Asia Twitter.
Entire fediverse is still mostly Western community.
Twitter is by far the larger platform, and small independent creators have to work to promote their game on every platform they can, if they want to succeed. The moral high ground of not using undesirable social media sites is nice, but isn’t fair to people who are partially dependent on those platforms to make a living.
Also, the simple fact is that there is no reason that any entity promoting their product has to choose any of these platforms over the other–you can just post to all of them, every single one that has enough users to be worth posting to.
I’ve seen several small creators say they get 10 times the engagement on Bluesky. That includes sales through promo links, which can’t be faked. It’s becoming clear that X’s numbers are mostly illusory at this point.
Steer clear of clowns emojis, bub.
They haven’t understood the game at all, I wonder if they even looked at it for more than two minutes
Run game > see playing cards and poker chips > close > PEGI 18
Ah, but there are also tarot cards, which is spooky Occult voodoo magic. Balatro backwards might spell “Satan is Lord” in some ancient druidic script.
Praise Otralab!
* ortalaB
It can’t be that easy. PEGI says that games containing gambling (real money or not) are rated with PEGI 12 to 18. So there must be something else to the game that led to this rating.
or…you know… they’re just morons.
Maybe winning a game award while being solo developer studio, it feels like this to me
They’re not looking into blatant gambling in AAA titles, of course they won’t take a closer look into an indie game. They’re completely useless.