The interesting thing is that although I’ve almost never spent money on a gacha system and haven’t played much gacha systems recently, my brain subconsciously craved for more but in a safer way.
That’s why I created the JavaScript weighted playlist for myself: A random selection of songs from my music library where some songs play (much) more than others. Getting a super rare song is akin to getting a top tier drop. Additionally, the playback rate is randomized to a normal distribution, giving the tiny chance that a rare song can play with a wild playback rate. And if that wasn’t enough, some Geometry Dash related songs can randomly skip to the next song, simulating watching someone try to beat some demon level.
I’ve created a skinner box for my brain that sometimes causes me to waste hours just clicking on the “next song” button to see what shows up next. My wallet was not harmed in the process (although it might soon be because I want it to work on a portable device, but that money would go to some niche open source hardware thing rather than a greedy gacha publisher).
China has announced a ban on Gacha game mechanics (and lootboxes, predatory discounts, and gambling) which should hopefully ripple out to Europe and the US soon.
A lot of these mechanics were adapted from the Chinese gaming market and I think the same will likely happen in the reverse.
Same, World of Tanks is the first game that comes to my mind when people mention pay2win mechanics. I am quite happy that I don’t play that game anymore.
Countries like Belgium and the Netherlands have already banned loot boxes and gacha systems
Did they really? I certainly know that the lootboxes aren’t allowed here (rip my TF2 weapon paints), but I still could spend 10 euros on Genshin Impact, even if I had to use MasterCard.
I have zero interest in paying for lootboxes or other gambling crap paid with real money in games.
But games like Lost Ark were banned in The Netherlands and it took me a while to figure out why it didn’t show in my Steam store.
I wish there were other means instead of just outright banning games from stores (like Diablo Immortal for mobile also isn’t available in The Netherlands). It didn’t take me much to get around the ban and install Lost Ark anyway, so I figured if I can do that, then what’s stopping people with gambling problems from doing the same as well.
Also it seems wildly inconsistent when games are and aren’t allowed for us to download. Why should I be limited to the regulated games accessible because of other people’s gambling addictions? Feels like half the Steam library could be Thanos-snapped if it were just for lootboxes and transactions being present in games.
How about both? Writing your elected reps is definitely smart, but will be much more effective if there are numerous people calling for the same. I appreciate OP sharing their views, and catloaf sharing a specific action step all of us can do it we are concerned about this matter.
I worked for a few years as a gambling addiction counselor, and these types of games definitely prime people for addiction to gambling. Also, it’s worth noting that the demographic with the highest rates of gambling addiction are young men, aged 18-24.
Anyone that’s been to a casino can attest that major video game companies also make slot machines. The industry are aware of what they’re doing.
It’s time for developers and legislators to take responsibility and start protecting the players, especially the younger ones, from these predatory practices.
They’re making fucking bank with these practices. It will have to be stopped by government regulation. Self-regulation of industries has literally never fucking worked once in history. Look at Boeing, which has had the FAA basically glad-handing it for 50 years and it’s falling apart at the seams (sometimes literally).
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.
I mean, look how fast the ENTIRE industry shifted to battle passes (and still gacha) and away from “loot boxes” the very moment the first country said they’d consider regulation.
Even the ESRB, another example of gaming industry self-regulation, hasn’t stopped gaming companies marketing M-rated games to kids or really slowed down sales or access to such games to underage players at all. If anything, they use the M rating as a direct marketing tool to kids: “your parents wouldn’t want you to play this so you totally should”.
Ah yes, the ESRB, the group built to avoid actual regulation.
I mean, I get it, to an extent, the MPAA was and is absolute dogshit and filled with weird right-wing Christians who don’t like things that show women’s sexual pleasure and a lot of other weird censorial decisions.
Like how Hillary Clinton wanted to ban GTA because of the Hot Coffee mod, when the actual “Hot Coffee” minigame wasn’t available in an easily accessible way.
So, to that extent, I can understand why they built that system to avoid idiot fucking puritans taking over the ratings sytem, but I generally agree, it’s become more of a taboo thing just like the “PARENTAL WARNING EXPLICIT LYRICS” just made people want that version more. (That really worked out, huh, Tipper Gore?)
Without actual enforcement, it becomes something cool for kids to get.
The AO rating is still the kiss-of-death for game content in North America, enforced by retailers. Even still, the ESRB only came about because the political climate at the time was very much “clean up your shit or we’ll do it for you.”
Then they come up with the rating system whose only enforcement is on the AO rating, and don’t bother to actually clean up their shit. As the post above yours mentioned, the problem is lack of enforcement anywhere outside the AO rating or even anyone involved actually caring. Devs and marketing teams push for M if they want to actually sell a game to kids above 7 years old, retailers will sell anything to anyone lest they lose out on the money, and parents who ask about it will just ask the kid who wants to buy the game and will lie about what the rating means. We can crab about movie ratings all we want, but at least most studios and theaters actually enforce the MPAA’s rating and parents know what movie ratings mean. Game ratings are basically like TV ratings, so irrelevant you wonder why they even bother.
I don’t know where you’re hearing retailers don’t enforce ratings. Yes, it happens uncommonly, but the FTC previously found ratings compliance was higher among video game retailers than at the box office, and not much has changed in the culture since then. I’ve worked at multiple retailers that sold video games, and the training for video games enforcement was always taken just as seriously as with alcohol sales.
Being the largest entertainment industry in the world now, video game publishers are serious about this stuff. Developers also still take steps to avoid a Hot Coffee situation from occurring again.
Sure, but, technically, without Gacha games I would t have discovered my ex wife sexting another dude. Because she was attempting to hide the money she spent in credit cards I didn’t have access to, then wanted me to pay.
Which led me to digging around, discovering the unaltered statement, then she got drunk and the phone was open in her hand playing some stupid virtual bingo and a snap popped up and wouldnt you know it
I was a young idiot making minimum wage and I spent 500 dollars in a gacha game over a three month period. It’s been years and I still wake up at night, remember this and feel the strongest remorse.
You escaped addiction (hopefully) without too many long-term consequences, hopefully that remorse will help you avoid similar situations in the future :)
I watched a documentary on Darksyde Phil. He managed to spend 44000 on a Wrestling gambling game per month.
I think the bright side is that you learned something even tho it was a 500 dollar lesson.
I used to work with a guy who was super cheap. Like i sometimes payed for his coffee or whatever, because i always did that with friends and co workers, and sometimes they would pay too. He never did that. One day we talked about video games and spending habits. He said he doesn’t play video games, but he played clash of clans. I didn’t really know what clash of clans is, aside from seeing some screenshots and seeing memes. He said that he spend 500-800 dollars a month on the game. It kinda blew me away, because i knew that whales often spend a bunch of cash on games, i just was a bit shocked about the amount and that it was HIM.
He looked at me and said, oh that’s nothing, you should see what my girlfriend spends on candy crush.
Damn, I’ve never thought of myself as a whale before but I guess for a while there I was. I wonder how many of the people we see in these games with all the premium characters and skins are like me, struggling. I always thought of them as having more money than sense but maybe they (we) lack both.
I don’t allow myself to play any mobile games anymore. Spent like $300 on one of those idle games. Not worth it. I refuse to play any free to play titles at all, no matter the platform these days.
I once spent $10 on a mobile game. You can get a special item by purchasing gems or by winning coins for which you have to grind for a year.
After getting the item, i felt so disgusted that I gave up mobile gaming and shifted to PC.
This was pretty much my experience. I played some browser game with friends, way before gatcha and mobile games. Gor today’s standards, the game was actually pretty good, but i started like a week or two later than my friends so i payed for a booster pack or something that was like 10 dollars and i immediately regretted it so hard. I almost felt sick and like an idiot.
I’m sorry, it really sounds like it turned into an addiction for you. Very happy that you got away from it. Be careful with addictive substances or activities in your life, some people have a predisposition for it.
Thank you! I very much have that predisposition. I’ve noticed that I have addictive behavior towards sugar and caffeine as well (I’m fine as long as I don’t have any, but if I have some I’ll continue to crave more at shorter and shorter intervals until I go to sleep and it resets), and recently celebrated my third month nicotine free after about four years total smoking and then vaping.
Addictive proclivities are a personal defect normally. But when you exist in a context where there are people whose job it is to get you hooked on things, they become a handicap.
Cali is a hit or miss, the Cali privacy reg has been so watered down compared to the GDPR it feels like the ad industry got it in to prevent future harsher regulations.
The problem is the new wave of gacha games are really selling you on characters and Hoyoverse isn’t even hiding it anymore: The more money you pour into Zenless Zone Zero, the less clothes the Proxy wear in the unlockables. And they have characters for every sexual preference on Earth at this point.
Without being a gacha game, World of WarCraft is guilty of a lot of the same stuff. You probably know people who flunked out of college due to the addiction, or have heard of parents who neglected their child over that game. It preys on a lot of the same impulses that Diablo and Diablo II seemed to have found by accident, before they were monetized by subscription fees and then microtransactions. And you can see a lot of the same in games like Destiny.
Without being a gacha game, World of WarCraft is guilty of a lot of the same stuff.
I’m not a fan of trying to poison the well on this discussion by trying to bring in a lot of secondary issues and try to broaden the issue to the point of uselessness.
The biggest issue with gambling is the ability to lose your money.
Sure, you can waste time with World of Warcraft. But I can also waste time playing too much Baldur’s Gate 3, or Civilization, or by binging shows on Netflix.
But none of those allow me to spend thousands or tens of thousands by gambling on mechanics within the media itself.
Because I’d say the addiction is the issue. The biggest issue with gambling is the addiction. If you’re not addicted, you’re not spending time or money beyond your means. So I’d rather not broaden it to how much money it sucks out of you when the addiction is the issue. It all relies on the same principles that we know to be worth legal regulation when it’s acknowledged as gambling. I don’t know anyone who got addicted to Netflix, but they’ll “binge” shows because we no longer live in the era where we can only watch shows according to a broadcast schedule; plus sometimes, you just want some background noise while you’re doing something else, including a show you’ve seen a million times.
This reads like “the only moral Skinner box is my Skinner box.”
Also sounds like you haven’t played in a while. The addition of real currency to gold trading creates an even more direct pipeline from one’s wallet to in-game gear dice rolls. Guilds selling raid gear is even more common now, and with crafting orders, a whale can spend to reroll secondary stats on crafted gear.
With the way Warcraft is throwing currencies at players now, it’s clear Blizzard has taken more than a few cues from how gacha and other live-service outfits are doing things these days. Plenty of opportunities for ruinous, addictive behavior.
Come on. We both know that legitimizing the RMT system increased the number of gold buyers and normalized the process. Not only does it now capture the players who were both a) squeamish about paying unproven third parties and b) had no recourse if they did get scammed, it’s also a far more convenient process. We know the gold-for-gear (and other services) market exploded in size because Blizzard was finally forced to make systemic changes to fight/redirect services spam. Service sellers are everywhere, and there was a point they were constantly in your whispers, your mailbox, your chat, your group finder. It’s nothing like it was 15-20 years ago.
No, gold buyers are not most players (and no, I don’t care that some players are doing it). Most gacha players aren’t whales, either. My point is that yes, your game is also chasing the whales right now and will continue to design systems to do so.
Good luck figuring out how to avoid labeling every game ever made as a “skinner box”. It’s basically a jaded person’s definition of what video games are at their core.
It doesn’t have to be jaded. As with the original quote I riffed off of, these particular Skinner boxes don’t have to always be pure evil and can provide net-positive outcomes, as long as we’re clear-eyed about the consequences of participating. The latter part is what I’m trying to drive home here. Consumer behavior psychology is part of every major live-service game.
I agree with you, to an extent. I would say it’s a lot more complicated than that with World of Warcraft, which is an MMO, and does not revolve on gambling except in the aspect of random number generated loot.
The way that the drops are is literally the same approach as a slot machine but with more steps to take up your time with boring shit and require more of your life to be dedicated to it so that there is less risk of you getting distracted by things like hobbies or games with finite stories with quality writing. A one-armed bandit might snag a handful of whales that spend all of their time feeding the machine. The Wrath of the Lich Bandit gets a much larger percentage of its users in front of it for a larger amount of their time, increasing the ratio of addicts/whales caught. Add in expansions, real money auctions, etc and you’ve got something much more fucked up than anything on a Vegas casino floor.
You could throw most of this same argument back at gachas. They’re just gambling because the world sucks, or something…
No, my understanding is that the reason people get addicted to this stuff is that we evolved to gather finite resources when they’re available, even if it’s rare, so we’re prey to systems like this that can control that rarity. WoW absolutely did this, just without putting a price on each interaction.
Haven’t played WoW in awhile, but do they now have ‘you can spend unlimited money’ mechanics? Previously it was just stuff like mounts and character transfers and stuff. I know you can also sell tokens for gold, but I thought gold kind of becomes irrelevant at some point. The best gear is bind on drop right? Theoretically I guess you can pay gold for boost runs, which probably counts as an endless money sink.
I kind of have a mental separation in my head between games with unlimited money sinks (like games with energy mechanics) where you can spend and spend and spend and it never stops, vs games that have a finite of things to buy.
It can still be way over priced, but there’s a maximum amount of money you can throw at the game. Even Diablo 4, with a relatively huge and highly priced number of cosmetic items has effectively a maximum price (though every new cosmetic increases that price). Vs Diablo Immortal allowing you to spend 10s of thousands of dollars and still need to keep spending. I think unlimited money mechanics should be outlawed or at least fully classified as gambling and regulated accordingly.
I think keeping you addicted so as to continue to paying a monthly subscription is bad on its own, and I don’t think it needs to be qualified by how much you spend overall if they’re still knowingly capitalizing on that addiction in an unregulated environment. But also, while I don’t know the answer to your question for a fact, I would imagine that they do have ways to spend unlimited money in that game if you’re so inclined.
Fair, but given the degradation of gaming these days I think a lot of people who aren’t paying attention have an outdated and understated view of just how bad things are. A parent might be thinking: wow had a subscription, so this game with micro transactions isn’t all that bad, not recognizing just how tuned modern predatory gaming has become at extracting money and addicting its users.
WoW mostly addicted people to playing (consuming their time), you can go hours and hours of gameplay without inputting more money. But mobile games maximize extracting maximal profit for minimal gameplay. There’s no functional difference between a gacha pull and a slot machine pull. It’s an endless, mindless set of pretty lights where you just hit the buy button over and over and over. If you sat people down and made them watch (with a running cost total) most people would immediately see the resemblance to a casino.
I think it’s helpful to break things down into more granular levels of predation, just to help clarify how bad it’s getting, even if all of it is problematic.
I remember being pissed when I got shitty cards from a YuGiOh booster pack when I was a kid, never bought new packs again. Only got stuff if I knew its value first. The fact that kids these days are actually falling prey to these systems shows how much more advanced and predatory they are.
As someone who plays a gacha game (Genshin Impact) I 100% agree. This shit should be kept the hell out of the hands of kids until their brain has at least matured to the point we’d let them go actual gambling.
That said, there’s certainly a spread of abusiveness in the games: some are very reasonable and could be played with no money or very little money because they’re generous with premium currencies and others are doing a sexy little dance while they steal your wallet.
Regulation around how much you can spend in a month would be reasonable, no kids would be reasonable, requiring clear and published probabilities and what those probabilities mean in terms of how many pulls would be a good start.
I can assure you most gacha players cannot tell you how many pulls you’d need to make for a 0.5% chance pull.
Also maybe outline estimated costs for winning wouldn’t be awful, but that’s maybe not feasible since there’s a lot of variability?
Knowing the odds doesn’t stop children from developing a gambling habit.
We were on the way to banning gambling a couple decades ago, it was illegal online and it was hard for new casinos to open up. Sports betting was illegal.
Now we’ve got FanDuel and gacha and loot boxes and crypto casinos and shitcoin shoveling influencers all this awful shit. And if you look around, the biggest shitbag bullies are the ones who are promoting it, because they know they’ll get their bag and their fans will never turn on them.
You know, because they might win next time.
These people are child predators, just not (always) the sexual kind. Fucking ban it all.
Oh I wasn’t meaning to say it wasn’t predatory, merely that it’s honest about what it is. A LOT of other gacha/lootbox games are far more obscure about what’s going on and how you’re getting screwed and Genshin at least has it all clearly outlined and easily (ish) understood.
Also, I was mentally using 21 as the gambling age since I’m an American and we don’t really trust those shifty 18-year-olds with anything other than being shot at in a war.
I take your point, though, but at some point, you have to shrug and call someone a full-fledged adult, and let them shit up their own life.
But call it gambling, regulate it under the same legal requirements as you would any other form of gambling, and keep the kids out.
You are very confused, the pity is only for the S rank characters, getting an A rank does not reset it, and every game resets your pity when you get a S rank, they being the new one from the banner or someone that’s been in the game for a while, but the second time you hit pity will be the banner S rank, just like genshin and star rail.
Yes, I’m on the camp that lootboxes and gacha should be for adults only since it preys on the same desire, also I know card games are like this too and it was wrong that they got away with it for so long BUT you can at least sell your cards.
Gacha can be moderately acceptable if the math is fully documented and enforced. If you know it will take <= 180 pulls to get Raiden Shogun, and each pull costs $3, then it’s just a $540 DLC with extra steps and the tease thst it might be cheaper if you’re lucky or have banked pulls.
But transparency is key-- the developer should be expected to offer a calculator or lookup table for any RNG item, especially if it’s some combination of multiple drop mechanics or hsrd-to-convert currencies that dissuades back-of-the-envelope estimates.
Even in Vegas, the slot machines are required to disclose their payout rate.
There’s also significant differences in the gacha appeal factor. If there are no leaderboards or PvP, and the game mechanics can be completed with F2P only, that is inherently less pressure to spend then on a game where you regularly get your ass handed to you by a someone with a Black Amex and all seven-star limited banner units.
Agreed on P2P gacha games. Those are just gross as fuck, since as you said, they’re explicitly pay-to-win.
Genshin does, for the most part, provide very clear percentages and how the math works out, so you can actually do that but they’re certainly a rarity. I will say, though, that while they do provide that information it’s also in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a disused lavatory with a ‘beware of the leopard’ sign.
You can find it if you know where it is, but your average user isn’t going to know the magic things you should click on to get from the wish screen to the page on the website where they outline specific odds and pull rates, which eh, not a fan of making that so obscure.
Also: not a fan of the sell you a currency you have to convert to another currency to convert to a 3rd thing that then can be used for gambling thing. There shouldn’t be more than one level of obscuring between your money and the final item you need - Genshin goes from Crystals to Primogems to Wishes, and that’s almost entirely to be sure to confuse people how much that wish actually cost, since you’ve got a lot of math to do to get back to what you orginally paid for the Crystals.
Even if you do find the cabinet in the lavatory, the probability calculations for a simple use case are ridiculously complicated. It does reek a bit of “minimum compliance required by law.”
On the plus side, Hoyo (at least in Star Rail) doesn’t bombard the player in-game with pop-ups or the like. A zero-spend player that just wants to poke around in the story or the game world isn’t going to be harassed. Instead, it’s earnest marketing, by way of letting the player use characters on trial, featuring them in the story, or high-quality video productions published outside the game. They make as much money as they do because their production values on that stuff are among the best in the business.
As far as running a digital goods casino (where you don’t own the goods), I’ve seen far worse. I still don’t think we’re doing as much as we should to protect those with addictions to gambling or FOMO from these products, however.
Honestly if you approach genshins probabilities for 5* with anything other than “50% i get at max pity, 100% at 2x max pity” you’re doing it wrong so I’d argue in that sense it’s dead simple. 4* being less guaranteed feels like a problem though, you’re not that much more likely to get the 4* you want from a banner than the 5*, and there’s no guarantee you’ll ever get it at all. And ime a LOT of people don’t realize that (though I still don’t think getting a rough idea of that is particularly complicated).
Having outright “if you spend x in game currency, you are x% likely to get the thing you want” info does seem like a reasonable requirement.
And personally the reason i spent more on genshin than any other gacha is that i had a reasonably priced guarantee instead of having to gamble at all, it felt more like buying chars for a set price with bonus loot boxes.
you’re not that much more likely to get the 4* you want from a banner than the 5*, and there’s no guarantee you’ll ever get it at all
This literally happened to me lol, wanted to get some constellations for YaoYao and walked away only with Alhaitam and no constellations. Didn’t spend a dime though, the only money I put on genshin was buying a skin.
It’s not a rarity, all eastern games show a percentage because their local jurisdiction (often china and japan) require it by LAW, they didn’t do it for the goodness of their hearts.
World of Warcraft and Diablo are gacha. Every time you play, you are “pulling” and hoping for a good drop(item). What modern gacha games did, is take that gameplay/psychological feature and directly monetize it(instead of indirectly monetizing it through a subscription/1 time payment).
But both are gambling. I am ok with having age restrictions but we need to be honest with ourselves. And what is “fun” is whatever makes neurons activate. Gambling(ie rpg elements) has always been a core mechanic for many games.
I stopped playing WoW because it didn’t value my time. There is a limit to how much you can spend on WoW. Sure, you can buy gold, but it honestly won’t help you that much. The upgrades come from the weekly content, mostly.
And then there’s the mobile stuff where whales rule the day.
Modern gacha games are more exploitative and effective. But there is a reason why almost all conventional games have “rpg elements” nowadays. I am an old gamer and i remember when this happened.
Game devs realized that if they have “number goes up” mechanics in their games, those games will be more popular and they will sell more. Thats how all games, including multiplayer competitive games, started adding temporary progression(session based, ie buying items between rounds in counterstrike) and then permanent progression(unlocking attachments and prestiging in call of duty).
Quake and unreal didnt have any progression, yet they were very popular multiplayer games. Many people blamed the lack of “parallel progression” systems in starcraft 2, for its failure(sc2 eventually added more parallel progression). Mechabellum, an autobattler(the modern equivalent of an rts), has like 3 different numbers that go up, on top of unlocking unit abilities and skins.
The mobile game market is very competitive and game development is extremely fast and iterative. So they leapfrogged ahead of conventional gaming when it comes to all kinds of user metric manipulation(addictiveness, engagement, etc). Dont hate the player, hate the game.
Funnily enough, the most popular mobile games atm are by Hoyoverse and they arent even that exploitative. They are AAA games, with decent story, graphics, gameplay and the gacha is just there for the more vulnerable/rich people. IMO playing them as f2p is not only viable but actually more enjoyable(ie challenging instead of rolfstomping everything).
If only there were more conventional games as a service that could pump the amount and quality of content that Hoyoverse creates for their games. But Hoyoverse is a private company, probably funded by the chinese government, so they can afford to reinvest all those billions back into the game development, unlike other games. And it shows.
So ultimately, gacha is kinda like real life gambling. I am kinda ok with it, as long as it isnt promoted and its profits go to a good place(funding education or creating decent games).
The original versions of the game wouldn’t allow you to simply spend real money for in game benefits.
That’s since changed, as in game marketplaces have given users the ability to buy up their level, their gear, and their various grindable ranks.
But this is a relatively new iteration of the franchise. They also don’t use the “stars” power curve, wherein characters need to spend exponentially more in game currency to achieve linear power scale.
Nah, they are not comparable in a meaningful way. Sure, at a high level, you can apply aspects of “gambling” to both examples. But the biggest and most important point is the ability to spend actual money for additional changes at “winning”.
People are against gaming because of some deep-seating fear of Random Number Generation by itself. They are against it because of how easy it is to lose money.
It depends on if you value your time or not. That’s what you gamble in WoW. If you don’t get your drop at the end of the raid, you lost time. When a new expansion obsoletes your gear, you lost time.
Oh wait, you literally have to buy play-time to even do the raid in the first place and roll the wheel. Not to mention the (sub)time it takes to level up and gear up.
Yeah. Just because you are not pulling out your wallet at every kill doesn’t mean you aren’t gambling and losing, both time and money.
In that case aren’t most games gambling? You fight a boss and you die. You have failed and you lose progress of the boss fight which means the failed fight was a waste of time. Gambling.
My actual point is that despite us having a relatively good intuition on what is gambling, defining what gambling really is is pretty hard. Be too broad and you will end up marking non-gambling things as gambling, be too narrow and you get things like lootboxes that definitely feel like gambling but don’t actually fit most legal definitions of gambling.
Your definition is so broad it encompasses almost all games and as such is useless when you want to use it to regulate gambling on games.
It is gambling becaae there is a “house” you at playing against, whoever sets the odds and has a financial interest in them.
If you’re playing a singleplayer game, you are still triggering the same mechanisms, but no one is profiting from you staying up until 3am playing a singleplayer game you already paid for.
So all subscription games are gambling? What about Fallout 76? It’s not gambling if you just buy the game but if you buy the subscription the game becomes gambling despite the game fundamentally stays the same and the subscription doesn’t add any RNG to the game?
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The interesting thing is that although I’ve almost never spent money on a gacha system and haven’t played much gacha systems recently, my brain subconsciously craved for more but in a safer way.
That’s why I created the JavaScript weighted playlist for myself: A random selection of songs from my music library where some songs play (much) more than others. Getting a super rare song is akin to getting a top tier drop. Additionally, the playback rate is randomized to a normal distribution, giving the tiny chance that a rare song can play with a wild playback rate. And if that wasn’t enough, some Geometry Dash related songs can randomly skip to the next song, simulating watching someone try to beat some demon level.
I’ve created a skinner box for my brain that sometimes causes me to waste hours just clicking on the “next song” button to see what shows up next. My wallet was not harmed in the process (although it might soon be because I want it to work on a portable device, but that money would go to some niche open source hardware thing rather than a greedy gacha publisher).
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I swear the post sounds like an LLM so much, but if it isn’t, congrats to OP on the writing skills
indeed. completely different writing style than the rest of OPs posts/comments as well
We had to convince my brother in law (13yo) to not spend his birthday money of £85 on Genshin impact skins. Kids are fucked by advertising man
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China has announced a ban on Gacha game mechanics (and lootboxes, predatory discounts, and gambling) which should hopefully ripple out to Europe and the US soon.
A lot of these mechanics were adapted from the Chinese gaming market and I think the same will likely happen in the reverse.
It’s the same formula in damned near every game now. Pay2Win has made even the most chill JRPG a wall of ads and notifications to spend more money.
Same, World of Tanks is the first game that comes to my mind when people mention pay2win mechanics. I am quite happy that I don’t play that game anymore.
I’m no stranger to people paying for skins and all, but when i first heard that kids want vbucks as a Christmas gift my stomach kinda turned.
Did they really? I certainly know that the lootboxes aren’t allowed here (rip my TF2 weapon paints), but I still could spend 10 euros on Genshin Impact, even if I had to use MasterCard.
I have zero interest in paying for lootboxes or other gambling crap paid with real money in games.
But games like Lost Ark were banned in The Netherlands and it took me a while to figure out why it didn’t show in my Steam store.
I wish there were other means instead of just outright banning games from stores (like Diablo Immortal for mobile also isn’t available in The Netherlands). It didn’t take me much to get around the ban and install Lost Ark anyway, so I figured if I can do that, then what’s stopping people with gambling problems from doing the same as well.
Also it seems wildly inconsistent when games are and aren’t allowed for us to download. Why should I be limited to the regulated games accessible because of other people’s gambling addictions? Feels like half the Steam library could be Thanos-snapped if it were just for lootboxes and transactions being present in games.
Look at the mobile game industry if cancer could manifest as a software this industry is spreading it like oil and gas.
Assuming “we” is the US, write your state and federal representatives, not Lemmy. People might agree with you, but you’re preaching to the choir.
How about both? Writing your elected reps is definitely smart, but will be much more effective if there are numerous people calling for the same. I appreciate OP sharing their views, and catloaf sharing a specific action step all of us can do it we are concerned about this matter.
I worked for a few years as a gambling addiction counselor, and these types of games definitely prime people for addiction to gambling. Also, it’s worth noting that the demographic with the highest rates of gambling addiction are young men, aged 18-24.
Anyone that’s been to a casino can attest that major video game companies also make slot machines. The industry are aware of what they’re doing.
They’re making fucking bank with these practices. It will have to be stopped by government regulation. Self-regulation of industries has literally never fucking worked once in history. Look at Boeing, which has had the FAA basically glad-handing it for 50 years and it’s falling apart at the seams (sometimes literally).
-Upton Sinclair
I mean, look how fast the ENTIRE industry shifted to battle passes (and still gacha) and away from “loot boxes” the very moment the first country said they’d consider regulation.
At least with battle passes its all laid out and its more a case of putting the play time in.
Even the ESRB, another example of gaming industry self-regulation, hasn’t stopped gaming companies marketing M-rated games to kids or really slowed down sales or access to such games to underage players at all. If anything, they use the M rating as a direct marketing tool to kids: “your parents wouldn’t want you to play this so you totally should”.
EDIT: autocorrect is dumb
Ah yes, the ESRB, the group built to avoid actual regulation.
I mean, I get it, to an extent, the MPAA was and is absolute dogshit and filled with weird right-wing Christians who don’t like things that show women’s sexual pleasure and a lot of other weird censorial decisions.
Like how Hillary Clinton wanted to ban GTA because of the Hot Coffee mod, when the actual “Hot Coffee” minigame wasn’t available in an easily accessible way.
So, to that extent, I can understand why they built that system to avoid idiot fucking puritans taking over the ratings sytem, but I generally agree, it’s become more of a taboo thing just like the “PARENTAL WARNING EXPLICIT LYRICS” just made people want that version more. (That really worked out, huh, Tipper Gore?)
Without actual enforcement, it becomes something cool for kids to get.
The AO rating is still the kiss-of-death for game content in North America, enforced by retailers. Even still, the ESRB only came about because the political climate at the time was very much “clean up your shit or we’ll do it for you.”
Then they come up with the rating system whose only enforcement is on the AO rating, and don’t bother to actually clean up their shit. As the post above yours mentioned, the problem is lack of enforcement anywhere outside the AO rating or even anyone involved actually caring. Devs and marketing teams push for M if they want to actually sell a game to kids above 7 years old, retailers will sell anything to anyone lest they lose out on the money, and parents who ask about it will just ask the kid who wants to buy the game and will lie about what the rating means. We can crab about movie ratings all we want, but at least most studios and theaters actually enforce the MPAA’s rating and parents know what movie ratings mean. Game ratings are basically like TV ratings, so irrelevant you wonder why they even bother.
I don’t know where you’re hearing retailers don’t enforce ratings. Yes, it happens uncommonly, but the FTC previously found ratings compliance was higher among video game retailers than at the box office, and not much has changed in the culture since then. I’ve worked at multiple retailers that sold video games, and the training for video games enforcement was always taken just as seriously as with alcohol sales.
Being the largest entertainment industry in the world now, video game publishers are serious about this stuff. Developers also still take steps to avoid a Hot Coffee situation from occurring again.
Sure, but, technically, without Gacha games I would t have discovered my ex wife sexting another dude. Because she was attempting to hide the money she spent in credit cards I didn’t have access to, then wanted me to pay.
Which led me to digging around, discovering the unaltered statement, then she got drunk and the phone was open in her hand playing some stupid virtual bingo and a snap popped up and wouldnt you know it
True
I was a young idiot making minimum wage and I spent 500 dollars in a gacha game over a three month period. It’s been years and I still wake up at night, remember this and feel the strongest remorse.
You escaped addiction (hopefully) without too many long-term consequences, hopefully that remorse will help you avoid similar situations in the future :)
If it helps me to avoid something even worse later on, maybe it was even worth the 500 bucks! Hopefully I’ll never have to find out.
I spent $800 on Fallout: Shelter
Fuck, my condolences.
I watched a documentary on Darksyde Phil. He managed to spend 44000 on a Wrestling gambling game per month.
I think the bright side is that you learned something even tho it was a 500 dollar lesson.
I used to work with a guy who was super cheap. Like i sometimes payed for his coffee or whatever, because i always did that with friends and co workers, and sometimes they would pay too. He never did that. One day we talked about video games and spending habits. He said he doesn’t play video games, but he played clash of clans. I didn’t really know what clash of clans is, aside from seeing some screenshots and seeing memes. He said that he spend 500-800 dollars a month on the game. It kinda blew me away, because i knew that whales often spend a bunch of cash on games, i just was a bit shocked about the amount and that it was HIM. He looked at me and said, oh that’s nothing, you should see what my girlfriend spends on candy crush.
Yikes. At least he’s dating someone with similar interests?
You’re right about the lesson learned. A silver lining.
But the industry said you whales were rich gamers that had too much money and didn’t know what to do with it! /s
Damn, I’ve never thought of myself as a whale before but I guess for a while there I was. I wonder how many of the people we see in these games with all the premium characters and skins are like me, struggling. I always thought of them as having more money than sense but maybe they (we) lack both.
I don’t allow myself to play any mobile games anymore. Spent like $300 on one of those idle games. Not worth it. I refuse to play any free to play titles at all, no matter the platform these days.
I once spent $10 on a mobile game. You can get a special item by purchasing gems or by winning coins for which you have to grind for a year. After getting the item, i felt so disgusted that I gave up mobile gaming and shifted to PC.
This was pretty much my experience. I played some browser game with friends, way before gatcha and mobile games. Gor today’s standards, the game was actually pretty good, but i started like a week or two later than my friends so i payed for a booster pack or something that was like 10 dollars and i immediately regretted it so hard. I almost felt sick and like an idiot.
Better to play it safe.
I’m sorry, it really sounds like it turned into an addiction for you. Very happy that you got away from it. Be careful with addictive substances or activities in your life, some people have a predisposition for it.
Thank you! I very much have that predisposition. I’ve noticed that I have addictive behavior towards sugar and caffeine as well (I’m fine as long as I don’t have any, but if I have some I’ll continue to crave more at shorter and shorter intervals until I go to sleep and it resets), and recently celebrated my third month nicotine free after about four years total smoking and then vaping.
Addictive proclivities are a personal defect normally. But when you exist in a context where there are people whose job it is to get you hooked on things, they become a handicap.
You’re like 5 years late on this realization. Unfortunately not much is changing.
It seems the EU is moving on this issue with their usual tectonic speed.
https://dailywrap.ca/video-game-giants-face-eu-scrutiny-over-exploitative-microtransactions,7070300439647873a
Let’s hope they also hit with their usual tectonic force.
Compared to the US, the EU is lightning fast. California probably beats them sometimes, though.
Cali is a hit or miss, the Cali privacy reg has been so watered down compared to the GDPR it feels like the ad industry got it in to prevent future harsher regulations.
The problem is the new wave of gacha games are really selling you on characters and Hoyoverse isn’t even hiding it anymore: The more money you pour into Zenless Zone Zero, the less clothes the Proxy wear in the unlockables. And they have characters for every sexual preference on Earth at this point.
Without being a gacha game, World of WarCraft is guilty of a lot of the same stuff. You probably know people who flunked out of college due to the addiction, or have heard of parents who neglected their child over that game. It preys on a lot of the same impulses that Diablo and Diablo II seemed to have found by accident, before they were monetized by subscription fees and then microtransactions. And you can see a lot of the same in games like Destiny.
I’m not a fan of trying to poison the well on this discussion by trying to bring in a lot of secondary issues and try to broaden the issue to the point of uselessness.
The biggest issue with gambling is the ability to lose your money.
Sure, you can waste time with World of Warcraft. But I can also waste time playing too much Baldur’s Gate 3, or Civilization, or by binging shows on Netflix.
But none of those allow me to spend thousands or tens of thousands by gambling on mechanics within the media itself.
How about we focus on that issue first?
Because I’d say the addiction is the issue. The biggest issue with gambling is the addiction. If you’re not addicted, you’re not spending time or money beyond your means. So I’d rather not broaden it to how much money it sucks out of you when the addiction is the issue. It all relies on the same principles that we know to be worth legal regulation when it’s acknowledged as gambling. I don’t know anyone who got addicted to Netflix, but they’ll “binge” shows because we no longer live in the era where we can only watch shows according to a broadcast schedule; plus sometimes, you just want some background noise while you’re doing something else, including a show you’ve seen a million times.
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This reads like “the only moral Skinner box is my Skinner box.”
Also sounds like you haven’t played in a while. The addition of real currency to gold trading creates an even more direct pipeline from one’s wallet to in-game gear dice rolls. Guilds selling raid gear is even more common now, and with crafting orders, a whale can spend to reroll secondary stats on crafted gear.
With the way Warcraft is throwing currencies at players now, it’s clear Blizzard has taken more than a few cues from how gacha and other live-service outfits are doing things these days. Plenty of opportunities for ruinous, addictive behavior.
It is, MMO players have been doing this to gacha games for years now, it’s just pot calling the kettle black.
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Come on. We both know that legitimizing the RMT system increased the number of gold buyers and normalized the process. Not only does it now capture the players who were both a) squeamish about paying unproven third parties and b) had no recourse if they did get scammed, it’s also a far more convenient process. We know the gold-for-gear (and other services) market exploded in size because Blizzard was finally forced to make systemic changes to fight/redirect services spam. Service sellers are everywhere, and there was a point they were constantly in your whispers, your mailbox, your chat, your group finder. It’s nothing like it was 15-20 years ago.
No, gold buyers are not most players (and no, I don’t care that some players are doing it). Most gacha players aren’t whales, either. My point is that yes, your game is also chasing the whales right now and will continue to design systems to do so.
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Good luck figuring out how to avoid labeling every game ever made as a “skinner box”. It’s basically a jaded person’s definition of what video games are at their core.
It doesn’t have to be jaded. As with the original quote I riffed off of, these particular Skinner boxes don’t have to always be pure evil and can provide net-positive outcomes, as long as we’re clear-eyed about the consequences of participating. The latter part is what I’m trying to drive home here. Consumer behavior psychology is part of every major live-service game.
The way that the drops are is literally the same approach as a slot machine but with more steps to take up your time with boring shit and require more of your life to be dedicated to it so that there is less risk of you getting distracted by things like hobbies or games with finite stories with quality writing. A one-armed bandit might snag a handful of whales that spend all of their time feeding the machine. The Wrath of the Lich Bandit gets a much larger percentage of its users in front of it for a larger amount of their time, increasing the ratio of addicts/whales caught. Add in expansions, real money auctions, etc and you’ve got something much more fucked up than anything on a Vegas casino floor.
You could throw most of this same argument back at gachas. They’re just gambling because the world sucks, or something…
No, my understanding is that the reason people get addicted to this stuff is that we evolved to gather finite resources when they’re available, even if it’s rare, so we’re prey to systems like this that can control that rarity. WoW absolutely did this, just without putting a price on each interaction.
Haven’t played WoW in awhile, but do they now have ‘you can spend unlimited money’ mechanics? Previously it was just stuff like mounts and character transfers and stuff. I know you can also sell tokens for gold, but I thought gold kind of becomes irrelevant at some point. The best gear is bind on drop right? Theoretically I guess you can pay gold for boost runs, which probably counts as an endless money sink.
I kind of have a mental separation in my head between games with unlimited money sinks (like games with energy mechanics) where you can spend and spend and spend and it never stops, vs games that have a finite of things to buy.
It can still be way over priced, but there’s a maximum amount of money you can throw at the game. Even Diablo 4, with a relatively huge and highly priced number of cosmetic items has effectively a maximum price (though every new cosmetic increases that price). Vs Diablo Immortal allowing you to spend 10s of thousands of dollars and still need to keep spending. I think unlimited money mechanics should be outlawed or at least fully classified as gambling and regulated accordingly.
I think keeping you addicted so as to continue to paying a monthly subscription is bad on its own, and I don’t think it needs to be qualified by how much you spend overall if they’re still knowingly capitalizing on that addiction in an unregulated environment. But also, while I don’t know the answer to your question for a fact, I would imagine that they do have ways to spend unlimited money in that game if you’re so inclined.
Fair, but given the degradation of gaming these days I think a lot of people who aren’t paying attention have an outdated and understated view of just how bad things are. A parent might be thinking: wow had a subscription, so this game with micro transactions isn’t all that bad, not recognizing just how tuned modern predatory gaming has become at extracting money and addicting its users.
WoW mostly addicted people to playing (consuming their time), you can go hours and hours of gameplay without inputting more money. But mobile games maximize extracting maximal profit for minimal gameplay. There’s no functional difference between a gacha pull and a slot machine pull. It’s an endless, mindless set of pretty lights where you just hit the buy button over and over and over. If you sat people down and made them watch (with a running cost total) most people would immediately see the resemblance to a casino.
I think it’s helpful to break things down into more granular levels of predation, just to help clarify how bad it’s getting, even if all of it is problematic.
I remember being pissed when I got shitty cards from a YuGiOh booster pack when I was a kid, never bought new packs again. Only got stuff if I knew its value first. The fact that kids these days are actually falling prey to these systems shows how much more advanced and predatory they are.
As someone who plays a gacha game (Genshin Impact) I 100% agree. This shit should be kept the hell out of the hands of kids until their brain has at least matured to the point we’d let them go actual gambling.
That said, there’s certainly a spread of abusiveness in the games: some are very reasonable and could be played with no money or very little money because they’re generous with premium currencies and others are doing a sexy little dance while they steal your wallet.
Regulation around how much you can spend in a month would be reasonable, no kids would be reasonable, requiring clear and published probabilities and what those probabilities mean in terms of how many pulls would be a good start.
I can assure you most gacha players cannot tell you how many pulls you’d need to make for a 0.5% chance pull.
Also maybe outline estimated costs for winning wouldn’t be awful, but that’s maybe not feasible since there’s a lot of variability?
Knowing the odds doesn’t stop children from developing a gambling habit.
We were on the way to banning gambling a couple decades ago, it was illegal online and it was hard for new casinos to open up. Sports betting was illegal.
Now we’ve got FanDuel and gacha and loot boxes and crypto casinos and shitcoin shoveling influencers all this awful shit. And if you look around, the biggest shitbag bullies are the ones who are promoting it, because they know they’ll get their bag and their fans will never turn on them.
You know, because they might win next time.
These people are child predators, just not (always) the sexual kind. Fucking ban it all.
Agreed, and this is why I’m firmly on the no-kids side of things.
If you can’t go to a casino until you’re 21, why exactly should you be able to gamble online (in any form!) until then either?
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Wait, what do you mean about the pity system? It’s identical for between Genshin, Star Rail, and Zenless.
I think it’s, what, like 90 for 5 star, 10 for 4 star. Standard and Limited banner tracks their own counter. Pulling on one doesn’t reset the other.
Oh I wasn’t meaning to say it wasn’t predatory, merely that it’s honest about what it is. A LOT of other gacha/lootbox games are far more obscure about what’s going on and how you’re getting screwed and Genshin at least has it all clearly outlined and easily (ish) understood.
Also, I was mentally using 21 as the gambling age since I’m an American and we don’t really trust those shifty 18-year-olds with anything other than being shot at in a war.
I take your point, though, but at some point, you have to shrug and call someone a full-fledged adult, and let them shit up their own life.
But call it gambling, regulate it under the same legal requirements as you would any other form of gambling, and keep the kids out.
You are very confused, the pity is only for the S rank characters, getting an A rank does not reset it, and every game resets your pity when you get a S rank, they being the new one from the banner or someone that’s been in the game for a while, but the second time you hit pity will be the banner S rank, just like genshin and star rail.
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Yes, I’m on the camp that lootboxes and gacha should be for adults only since it preys on the same desire, also I know card games are like this too and it was wrong that they got away with it for so long BUT you can at least sell your cards.
Gacha can be moderately acceptable if the math is fully documented and enforced. If you know it will take <= 180 pulls to get Raiden Shogun, and each pull costs $3, then it’s just a $540 DLC with extra steps and the tease thst it might be cheaper if you’re lucky or have banked pulls.
But transparency is key-- the developer should be expected to offer a calculator or lookup table for any RNG item, especially if it’s some combination of multiple drop mechanics or hsrd-to-convert currencies that dissuades back-of-the-envelope estimates.
Even in Vegas, the slot machines are required to disclose their payout rate.
There’s also significant differences in the gacha appeal factor. If there are no leaderboards or PvP, and the game mechanics can be completed with F2P only, that is inherently less pressure to spend then on a game where you regularly get your ass handed to you by a someone with a Black Amex and all seven-star limited banner units.
Agreed on P2P gacha games. Those are just gross as fuck, since as you said, they’re explicitly pay-to-win.
Genshin does, for the most part, provide very clear percentages and how the math works out, so you can actually do that but they’re certainly a rarity. I will say, though, that while they do provide that information it’s also in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a disused lavatory with a ‘beware of the leopard’ sign.
You can find it if you know where it is, but your average user isn’t going to know the magic things you should click on to get from the wish screen to the page on the website where they outline specific odds and pull rates, which eh, not a fan of making that so obscure.
Also: not a fan of the sell you a currency you have to convert to another currency to convert to a 3rd thing that then can be used for gambling thing. There shouldn’t be more than one level of obscuring between your money and the final item you need - Genshin goes from Crystals to Primogems to Wishes, and that’s almost entirely to be sure to confuse people how much that wish actually cost, since you’ve got a lot of math to do to get back to what you orginally paid for the Crystals.
Even if you do find the cabinet in the lavatory, the probability calculations for a simple use case are ridiculously complicated. It does reek a bit of “minimum compliance required by law.”
On the plus side, Hoyo (at least in Star Rail) doesn’t bombard the player in-game with pop-ups or the like. A zero-spend player that just wants to poke around in the story or the game world isn’t going to be harassed. Instead, it’s earnest marketing, by way of letting the player use characters on trial, featuring them in the story, or high-quality video productions published outside the game. They make as much money as they do because their production values on that stuff are among the best in the business.
As far as running a digital goods casino (where you don’t own the goods), I’ve seen far worse. I still don’t think we’re doing as much as we should to protect those with addictions to gambling or FOMO from these products, however.
Honestly if you approach genshins probabilities for 5* with anything other than “50% i get at max pity, 100% at 2x max pity” you’re doing it wrong so I’d argue in that sense it’s dead simple. 4* being less guaranteed feels like a problem though, you’re not that much more likely to get the 4* you want from a banner than the 5*, and there’s no guarantee you’ll ever get it at all. And ime a LOT of people don’t realize that (though I still don’t think getting a rough idea of that is particularly complicated).
Having outright “if you spend x in game currency, you are x% likely to get the thing you want” info does seem like a reasonable requirement.
And personally the reason i spent more on genshin than any other gacha is that i had a reasonably priced guarantee instead of having to gamble at all, it felt more like buying chars for a set price with bonus loot boxes.
This literally happened to me lol, wanted to get some constellations for YaoYao and walked away only with Alhaitam and no constellations. Didn’t spend a dime though, the only money I put on genshin was buying a skin.
It’s not a rarity, all eastern games show a percentage because their local jurisdiction (often china and japan) require it by LAW, they didn’t do it for the goodness of their hearts.
Did not know that, and everywhere should require that at the very bare minimum. Knowing how you’re going to get screwed is a good place to start.
World of Warcraft and Diablo are gacha. Every time you play, you are “pulling” and hoping for a good drop(item). What modern gacha games did, is take that gameplay/psychological feature and directly monetize it(instead of indirectly monetizing it through a subscription/1 time payment).
But both are gambling. I am ok with having age restrictions but we need to be honest with ourselves. And what is “fun” is whatever makes neurons activate. Gambling(ie rpg elements) has always been a core mechanic for many games.
I stopped playing WoW because it didn’t value my time. There is a limit to how much you can spend on WoW. Sure, you can buy gold, but it honestly won’t help you that much. The upgrades come from the weekly content, mostly.
And then there’s the mobile stuff where whales rule the day.
Modern gacha games are more exploitative and effective. But there is a reason why almost all conventional games have “rpg elements” nowadays. I am an old gamer and i remember when this happened.
Game devs realized that if they have “number goes up” mechanics in their games, those games will be more popular and they will sell more. Thats how all games, including multiplayer competitive games, started adding temporary progression(session based, ie buying items between rounds in counterstrike) and then permanent progression(unlocking attachments and prestiging in call of duty).
Quake and unreal didnt have any progression, yet they were very popular multiplayer games. Many people blamed the lack of “parallel progression” systems in starcraft 2, for its failure(sc2 eventually added more parallel progression). Mechabellum, an autobattler(the modern equivalent of an rts), has like 3 different numbers that go up, on top of unlocking unit abilities and skins.
The mobile game market is very competitive and game development is extremely fast and iterative. So they leapfrogged ahead of conventional gaming when it comes to all kinds of user metric manipulation(addictiveness, engagement, etc). Dont hate the player, hate the game.
Funnily enough, the most popular mobile games atm are by Hoyoverse and they arent even that exploitative. They are AAA games, with decent story, graphics, gameplay and the gacha is just there for the more vulnerable/rich people. IMO playing them as f2p is not only viable but actually more enjoyable(ie challenging instead of rolfstomping everything).
If only there were more conventional games as a service that could pump the amount and quality of content that Hoyoverse creates for their games. But Hoyoverse is a private company, probably funded by the chinese government, so they can afford to reinvest all those billions back into the game development, unlike other games. And it shows.
So ultimately, gacha is kinda like real life gambling. I am kinda ok with it, as long as it isnt promoted and its profits go to a good place(funding education or creating decent games).
The original versions of the game wouldn’t allow you to simply spend real money for in game benefits.
That’s since changed, as in game marketplaces have given users the ability to buy up their level, their gear, and their various grindable ranks.
But this is a relatively new iteration of the franchise. They also don’t use the “stars” power curve, wherein characters need to spend exponentially more in game currency to achieve linear power scale.
Nah, they are not comparable in a meaningful way. Sure, at a high level, you can apply aspects of “gambling” to both examples. But the biggest and most important point is the ability to spend actual money for additional changes at “winning”.
People are against gaming because of some deep-seating fear of Random Number Generation by itself. They are against it because of how easy it is to lose money.
It depends on if you value your time or not. That’s what you gamble in WoW. If you don’t get your drop at the end of the raid, you lost time. When a new expansion obsoletes your gear, you lost time.
Oh wait, you literally have to buy play-time to even do the raid in the first place and roll the wheel. Not to mention the (sub)time it takes to level up and gear up.
Yeah. Just because you are not pulling out your wallet at every kill doesn’t mean you aren’t gambling and losing, both time and money.
In that case aren’t most games gambling? You fight a boss and you die. You have failed and you lose progress of the boss fight which means the failed fight was a waste of time. Gambling.
My actual point is that despite us having a relatively good intuition on what is gambling, defining what gambling really is is pretty hard. Be too broad and you will end up marking non-gambling things as gambling, be too narrow and you get things like lootboxes that definitely feel like gambling but don’t actually fit most legal definitions of gambling.
Your definition is so broad it encompasses almost all games and as such is useless when you want to use it to regulate gambling on games.
It is gambling becaae there is a “house” you at playing against, whoever sets the odds and has a financial interest in them.
If you’re playing a singleplayer game, you are still triggering the same mechanisms, but no one is profiting from you staying up until 3am playing a singleplayer game you already paid for.
So all subscription games are gambling? What about Fallout 76? It’s not gambling if you just buy the game but if you buy the subscription the game becomes gambling despite the game fundamentally stays the same and the subscription doesn’t add any RNG to the game?
If you value your time, you wouldn’t be playing video games at all. As they are nearly an entertaining way to waste time.
All games waste either time, money, or both. So I guess we just have to make video games illegal now. Oh well. Was fun while it lasted.