Tam sits down with Swen Vinke from Larian to talk about the success of Baldur's Gate 3, all the roadblocks the team ran into during development, and the stud...
This is a really good interview. tl;dw is…
their next game was going to be D&D, but they changed course and are doing something else now
Vincke has a vision for “the one RPG to rule them all”, and each of their past three RPGs is a step closer to it
the next game is not going to be that master vision but one step closer toward it, with their previous 3 RPGs proving out emergent design/multiplayer, story and consequence, and personal stories/performance capture, respectively
Vincke would like to have this next game done in 3 years compared to BG3’s 6 year development cycle, but realistically expects 4 years, as long as there isn’t something like COVID-19 or a war in Ukraine to impede their progress
Have they ever done Sci-Fi? Also now that they are well known in the mainstream it would make a lot of sense to make another game using their own IP, would it not?
Uglifcation of women in games, currently plus other shit. Also no more tomb raiding in tomb raider, Lara’s a truth seeker now. lol just another example of a franchise being sacrificed at the alter.
AND ON LEMMY JANNIES FUCK CITY SLICKER HOT POCKETS CLEAN IT UP COPE CLEAN IT UP JANNIES AND DILATE CITY SLICKER FOR FREE CLEAN IT UP JANNIES CHUCK’S FLOYD FEED CHUCK’S FLOYD CHUCK’S FLOYD FUCK CITY SLICKER FEED I CAN’T SEED COPE CHUCK CITY SLICKER HOT POCKETS COPE HOT POCKETS FLOYD SEED AND CHUCK’S SEED DILATE FEED CHUCK COPE COPE ON LEMMY FEED FLOYD HOT POCKETS SEED FOR FREE
FEED SEED JANNIES JANNY CHUCK’S SNEED DILATE JANNIES I CAN’T SUCK FOR FREE FEED SEED COPE FUCK FEED CHUCK’S CLEAN IT UP CHUCK SEED SUCK AND DILATE SEETHE CLEAN IT UP JANNIES SNEED I CAN’T SNEED’S SEETHE CHUCK’S ON LEMMY CHUCK’S FLOYD CLEAN IT UP COPE SUCK SNEED CLEAN IT UP SUCK CLEAN IT UP CLEAN IT UP FOR FREE ON LEMMY HOT POCKETS SNEED HOT POCKETS SNEED DILATE FEED
Yeah, I’ve been moving over to Call of Cthulhu with my tabletop group. I find it far more enjoyable when the players are more careful about dying or worse.
Sinking ship or not, word was that Wizards’ cut of BG3 was over $90M. $100M was the entire production cost of Baldur’s Gate 3. If you could fund an entire other massive video game for the cost of what you paid your partner for licensing, I’m sure anyone would be rethinking that deal. At this point, they don’t need the D&D license any more than BioWare needed the Star Wars license after KOTOR.
I agree, but Piazo seems like much better partners. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d let them make the game for no fee, just license out the rules to try to make the system more well known and popular. Pathfinder 2E is the better system without a doubt, but people are used to D&D5e, so having something out there to bring new people in would be huge for them.
I’ve played Baldur’s Gate 1, Baldur’s Gate 2, and Planescape: Torment on 2nd edition rules. I’ve played Baldur’s Gate 3 on 5th edition rules and started playing tabletop 5th edition. I’ve played Pillars of Eternity 1, as I understand it largely inspired by 3.5 edition rules, and the first 10 hours of Pillars of Eternity 2, which I assume is now iterating on its own offshoot. I understand Pathfinder to largely be D&D 3.5. If that’s the case, and it’s in the ballpark of what Pillars of Eternity 1 is, I’ll take 5th edition any day of the week, but if you’d like to explain to me briefly why I might be wrong, I’m listening. Compared to how the 2e games and the Pillars games handle spells of different levels, 5e’s upcasting seems like a godsend, for instance.
Pathfinder 1E is essentially an improved D&D 3.5 that came to be the last time the licensing for modules became an issue. 2E is it’s own thing, and a large improvement.
One if the best changes for Pathfinder 2E is how actions work. D&D 5e has its a weird system of movement, action, bonus action, and then abilities that can add actions, but you can only cast one spell per turn regardless of if you have actions to use, except in some situations, and you can only use actions for some things sometimes, sometimes only once per turn. It’s just filled with exceptions because that’s not the original design intent but it’s tons of patches to make things function halfway decently.
Pathfinder 2E you have three actions per turn. Those can be used for anything always without exception. Every ability has a cost. For example moving is 1 action and can be done multiple times per turn, which makes things that displace enemies useful as they have to consume actions to get back into melee. Some spells may cost multiple actions, some very large ones can even require channeling multiple actions over several turns. It’s a very simple and intuitive system and you don’t need to remember thousands of exceptions like D&D5e.
Almost everything in Pathfinder 2E works like this. Things may be more complex to start with (which allows for choice), but you don’t need to remember tons of exceptions, so in total it’s simpler.
It doesn’t feel like a bunch of exceptions to me. It feels like you have a bonus action that’s basically always class-related, and everything else is an action. What you describe for Pathfinder doesn’t sound bad at all, but if some things cost multiple actions, that sounds like every bit the type of exception that you make 5e out to be full of. I don’t really find 5e to be unintuitive thus far such that I’m looking for another system to remedy it, I guess.
I don’t know. The Owlcat games have a really deep system that Divinity and BG3 don’t have. Is that just because of the pathfinder ruleset? Or does Larian do better with simpler systems? I don’t have an answer to those questions. It might be cool to see a BG3 “version” of Pathfinder, but I think it would lose something in the process.
The visuals out of Larian run laps around Owlcat. But that comes at the expense of depth, as each asset takes more time to develop.
It’s two different design philosophies creating two very different kinds of experience. Owlcat makes more of a complex digital board game while Larian has muddled a strategy format with a dating sim.
Reprinting some things, neglecting to reprint others, power creeping the stuff they did reprint out of the game, banning some stuff that was too powerful while printing other stuff that’s just as good for the same reasons. You know, standard card game stuff.
Moral of the story: run proxies. Speculators and investors ruined the market, WotC just let them do it. (Also, fuck the secondary market and the reserve list. It’s cardboard. Some of us just want to play)
I really like the way that he thinks, with each game being a way to learn new systems / implement new tools / increase the studio’s knowledge and skill. Such a great way to take on projects - it ensures that each game brings something new to the table, and it puts you in an even better position to tackle the next project.
My only request for the next game is: please don’t have it start with the player imprisoned on a ship and for the ship to be attacked by monsters so the player can use the chance to escape into a deadly situation only to be rescued at the last second by an unknown powerful being before waking up on a beach. Twice is enough, thanks.
What if you’re imprisoned on a cart and attacked by a dragon? Or just released from prison on a boat and dropped off in a swampy beach town? The fantasy RPG genre requires starting as a convict or prisoner, you see.
Just once I’d like to start a D&D video game like a real D&D game: in a tavern trying to get wasted and then someone barges in saying something about goblins or some shit, and I’m about six deep so I say, “Fuck it, we ball.”
Allow me to introduce you to Solasta: Crown of the Magister. It was the OTHER CRPG releases based on the DnD 5e system. Much smaller budget and team, but a pretty faithful recreation.
Including the fact that the game opens in a tavern with your party throwing back beer one of them might refer to as a donkey piss (depending on which personality archetype you selected for them) while they wait for their quest sponsor to show up and tell them what’s going on. In the meantime, each character introduces themselves to the others by discussing the adventure they had on the way to the present location (as an excuse to run through some tutorials). Doesn’t get much more classic DnD start than that.
Yep, that was a good game too. Different focus, and a fairly linear story. Part of what made Baldur’s Gate 3 so good was of course the amazing characters and character development. Solasta is missing that, but still a very solid and complete DnD game.
For sure. My impression is that to focus on character work in the same way as BG3 (i.e. voice acting, mocap, cinematics, etc) would have been an impossibility for the studio that made Solasta. I would guess they did not have the financial support to make that happen.
Personally, I think of it as being of a piece with the old Infinity Engine games. There was the Baldurs Gate series, which, in classic CRPG fashion, was all about player choice and character. But, side by side with those games, you had the Icewind Dale series, which was almost completely devoid of the story focus of the BG games and entirely focused on dungeon crawling and seeing how far the ruleset can be pushed.
I love starting in a tavern and having some run in in a panic screaming “UNDEEEEEEAD!!” and just drop a horde on the table. No time to think, no time to explain. The story starts later, right now you have to fight for your life together with whomever is able to hold at least a table leg.
I disagree, and now think Larian should start every game like this. Next Divinity? Pirate ship. Games Workshop has them make a game? Escape from a Citadel.
They could turn that into a running theme, like how every Elder Scrolls protagonist is a prisoner to start with…
But Divinity already has a long history and so does Baldur’s Gate so…ehh, doesn’t fit in quite as well. Maybe with a new IP they make it a tradition for.
Really I just miss games that are intensely and deeply “written”…Like Arcanum, Morrowind, or Disco Elysium. I want a game that is actually several books encased in game software. BG3 is close, but I want something even denser. I’ll be so gratified if Larian is on the same page.
I know what you mean. Disco was such a treat in that respect yeah. I love those kinds of literary games, where you can feel an author reaching out across the medium and actually trying to communicate something to you. Like there is a message in the game other than just supporting gameplay or engagement.
If you are going to play Divinity 2, start with Divinity 1
They both have differences in mechanics, but play about the same. The only main difference is that Divinity is only 2 player, while Divinity 2 is 4 player like BG3
Also, the mechanics of both Divinity games are build around it being video games. Meaning it is a better experience. In comparison with BG3, which was build as a TTRPG and only converted to a video game.
The only things I miss with Divinity are the cutscenes. Otherwise they would be as perfect (or even better) than BG3.
I’m gonna disagree with that other commenter. I’d recommend starting with DOS2 before 1. DOS2 is much more refined and generally less annoying to play. And they’re separate stories, so nothing in 2 would spoil the experience of 1
But they’re both good games worth playing, so don’t let that indecision stop you from trying either
I’m not sure I agree. DoS2 mechanic are cool, but the combat becomes way to chaotic for my liking. Also you do one mistake and now half your party is dead and the other half is on fire.
If we are taking about battle mechanics I hope they come up with a new system all together. I think both the OS2 and BG3/DnD mechanics were serviceable, and it was fun to play out fights. But neither was much of a challenge and fights didn’t often feel like unique puzzles.
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I hope their “one RPG to rule them all” will be a Divinity game!
I’m hoping for Sci-Fi and the next Mass Effect.
Have they ever done Sci-Fi? Also now that they are well known in the mainstream it would make a lot of sense to make another game using their own IP, would it not?
Is sweet baby inc involved?
fuck you and your gamergate bullshit
Fuck you, proof is in the sales. No one wants that trash.
touch grass and leave your mother’s basement once in a while
lmao, of course when you got nothing you get butthurt and insult. lol my friend I believe it’s you who is still in your mothers basement.
I am not your friend dipshit
I missed it, but is another Gamergate starting? What’s the TLDR?
https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/a-company-called-sweet-baby-inc-has-become-the-target-of-anti-woke-gamers-because-it-offers-consultancy-work-an-industry-standard-service-thats-been-normal-for-years/
Sorry, I am now blind from the eye rolling into the back of my skull. Cannot wait for the anti-woke bullshit to come out on this one.
Uglifcation of women in games, currently plus other shit. Also no more tomb raiding in tomb raider, Lara’s a truth seeker now. lol just another example of a franchise being sacrificed at the alter.
AND ON LEMMY JANNIES FUCK CITY SLICKER HOT POCKETS CLEAN IT UP COPE CLEAN IT UP JANNIES AND DILATE CITY SLICKER FOR FREE CLEAN IT UP JANNIES CHUCK’S FLOYD FEED CHUCK’S FLOYD CHUCK’S FLOYD FUCK CITY SLICKER FEED I CAN’T SEED COPE CHUCK CITY SLICKER HOT POCKETS COPE HOT POCKETS FLOYD SEED AND CHUCK’S SEED DILATE FEED CHUCK COPE COPE ON LEMMY FEED FLOYD HOT POCKETS SEED FOR FREE
FEED SEED JANNIES JANNY CHUCK’S SNEED DILATE JANNIES I CAN’T SUCK FOR FREE FEED SEED COPE FUCK FEED CHUCK’S CLEAN IT UP CHUCK SEED SUCK AND DILATE SEETHE CLEAN IT UP JANNIES SNEED I CAN’T SNEED’S SEETHE CHUCK’S ON LEMMY CHUCK’S FLOYD CLEAN IT UP COPE SUCK SNEED CLEAN IT UP SUCK CLEAN IT UP CLEAN IT UP FOR FREE ON LEMMY HOT POCKETS SNEED HOT POCKETS SNEED DILATE FEED
Baldur’s Gate 5?
Baldur’s Fence
Baldur’s Gate 360
How It Feels To Chew 5 Gum, The Experience.
The search for Baldur’s Gate 4.
Builders Gate: the Flamethrower!
(The kids really like this one)
They could get on with BG3 = DOS3 thing and just go ahead with Divinity: Original Sin 4 for their next title.
Larian Dating Sim 2025
Nah, theyve secretly acquired yandere simulator
That’s just BG3
No one will even hug me. This game sucks, too much like real life.
Praying for a new Kotor
No. I love the KOTOR games and hate Larian’s turn-based combat gameplay.
Yeah Wizards of the Coast isn’t the same company as when they signed the deal for BG3.
Smart of them to ditch the sinking ship that is D&D.
Yeah, I’ve been moving over to Call of Cthulhu with my tabletop group. I find it far more enjoyable when the players are more careful about dying or worse.
Sinking ship or not, word was that Wizards’ cut of BG3 was over $90M. $100M was the entire production cost of Baldur’s Gate 3. If you could fund an entire other massive video game for the cost of what you paid your partner for licensing, I’m sure anyone would be rethinking that deal. At this point, they don’t need the D&D license any more than BioWare needed the Star Wars license after KOTOR.
Thanks for expanding on my point.
They don’t need to be associated with WotC as they keep fucking up. Other RPG systems are becoming more and more popular.
Maybe they can partner with Paizo and make the next Pathfinder game, although I’d feel bad for Owlcat because their games have been great too.
For similar reasons as D&D, I doubt they’d license someone else’s system either, but I could be wrong.
I agree, but Piazo seems like much better partners. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d let them make the game for no fee, just license out the rules to try to make the system more well known and popular. Pathfinder 2E is the better system without a doubt, but people are used to D&D5e, so having something out there to bring new people in would be huge for them.
I’ve played Baldur’s Gate 1, Baldur’s Gate 2, and Planescape: Torment on 2nd edition rules. I’ve played Baldur’s Gate 3 on 5th edition rules and started playing tabletop 5th edition. I’ve played Pillars of Eternity 1, as I understand it largely inspired by 3.5 edition rules, and the first 10 hours of Pillars of Eternity 2, which I assume is now iterating on its own offshoot. I understand Pathfinder to largely be D&D 3.5. If that’s the case, and it’s in the ballpark of what Pillars of Eternity 1 is, I’ll take 5th edition any day of the week, but if you’d like to explain to me briefly why I might be wrong, I’m listening. Compared to how the 2e games and the Pillars games handle spells of different levels, 5e’s upcasting seems like a godsend, for instance.
Pathfinder 1E is essentially an improved D&D 3.5 that came to be the last time the licensing for modules became an issue. 2E is it’s own thing, and a large improvement.
One if the best changes for Pathfinder 2E is how actions work. D&D 5e has its a weird system of movement, action, bonus action, and then abilities that can add actions, but you can only cast one spell per turn regardless of if you have actions to use, except in some situations, and you can only use actions for some things sometimes, sometimes only once per turn. It’s just filled with exceptions because that’s not the original design intent but it’s tons of patches to make things function halfway decently.
Pathfinder 2E you have three actions per turn. Those can be used for anything always without exception. Every ability has a cost. For example moving is 1 action and can be done multiple times per turn, which makes things that displace enemies useful as they have to consume actions to get back into melee. Some spells may cost multiple actions, some very large ones can even require channeling multiple actions over several turns. It’s a very simple and intuitive system and you don’t need to remember thousands of exceptions like D&D5e.
Almost everything in Pathfinder 2E works like this. Things may be more complex to start with (which allows for choice), but you don’t need to remember tons of exceptions, so in total it’s simpler.
It doesn’t feel like a bunch of exceptions to me. It feels like you have a bonus action that’s basically always class-related, and everything else is an action. What you describe for Pathfinder doesn’t sound bad at all, but if some things cost multiple actions, that sounds like every bit the type of exception that you make 5e out to be full of. I don’t really find 5e to be unintuitive thus far such that I’m looking for another system to remedy it, I guess.
I don’t know. The Owlcat games have a really deep system that Divinity and BG3 don’t have. Is that just because of the pathfinder ruleset? Or does Larian do better with simpler systems? I don’t have an answer to those questions. It might be cool to see a BG3 “version” of Pathfinder, but I think it would lose something in the process.
The visuals out of Larian run laps around Owlcat. But that comes at the expense of depth, as each asset takes more time to develop.
It’s two different design philosophies creating two very different kinds of experience. Owlcat makes more of a complex digital board game while Larian has muddled a strategy format with a dating sim.
Yup, exactly!
True, the Divinity games were plenty of fun with their own system
Games Workshop whores their IP out to almost anyone, and despite being crappy about their mini stuff, they seem rather fair for electronic games.
Because they know this is the only part of their business left. Which works for them.
I’m out of the loop, what has wotc been fucking up?
Hasbro pulled a bunch of typical big corp enshitification tactics with their licensing and digital assets over the last couple of years.
They’ve also tanked the used market for people. 2 decks I had that I paid way too much for aren’t worth the cardboard they are printed on now. (MTG)
Wait what happened?
Reprinting some things, neglecting to reprint others, power creeping the stuff they did reprint out of the game, banning some stuff that was too powerful while printing other stuff that’s just as good for the same reasons. You know, standard card game stuff.
Moral of the story: run proxies. Speculators and investors ruined the market, WotC just let them do it. (Also, fuck the secondary market and the reserve list. It’s cardboard. Some of us just want to play)
Those decks were for competitive play. They wouldn’t let me run proxies.
My moral: Don’t give WotC anymore money, ever. Fuck 'em.
They do ~6B a year and clear about a billion, so that’s actually like 10% of their profit which is a lot for a company that big – wow!
Glances at Starfield
Maybe not your strongest point
Bioware didn’t make Starfield - that was Bethesda. Maybe you were thinking of Anthem? And fair point there.
I was talking about how the lack of Star Wars license didn’t stop Mass Effect from being even more successful than KOTOR, yes.
Sick, looking forward to Lord of the Rings 4
Bro!
Half life 3?
Brilliant. It would allow for having HL3 while also not forcing Valve to make a 3rd thing.
It’ll be legally distinct Double Quarter Life 3
I really like the way that he thinks, with each game being a way to learn new systems / implement new tools / increase the studio’s knowledge and skill. Such a great way to take on projects - it ensures that each game brings something new to the table, and it puts you in an even better position to tackle the next project.
My only request for the next game is: please don’t have it start with the player imprisoned on a ship and for the ship to be attacked by monsters so the player can use the chance to escape into a deadly situation only to be rescued at the last second by an unknown powerful being before waking up on a beach. Twice is enough, thanks.
What’s the other game? Because if it’s not Arcanum we have a 3rd.
As long as my journey starts on a beach, I don’t care what came before.
What if you’re imprisoned on a cart and attacked by a dragon? Or just released from prison on a boat and dropped off in a swampy beach town? The fantasy RPG genre requires starting as a convict or prisoner, you see.
Just once I’d like to start a D&D video game like a real D&D game: in a tavern trying to get wasted and then someone barges in saying something about goblins or some shit, and I’m about six deep so I say, “Fuck it, we ball.”
Allow me to introduce you to Solasta: Crown of the Magister. It was the OTHER CRPG releases based on the DnD 5e system. Much smaller budget and team, but a pretty faithful recreation.
Including the fact that the game opens in a tavern with your party throwing back beer one of them might refer to as a donkey piss (depending on which personality archetype you selected for them) while they wait for their quest sponsor to show up and tell them what’s going on. In the meantime, each character introduces themselves to the others by discussing the adventure they had on the way to the present location (as an excuse to run through some tutorials). Doesn’t get much more classic DnD start than that.
Hell yeah
Yep, that was a good game too. Different focus, and a fairly linear story. Part of what made Baldur’s Gate 3 so good was of course the amazing characters and character development. Solasta is missing that, but still a very solid and complete DnD game.
For sure. My impression is that to focus on character work in the same way as BG3 (i.e. voice acting, mocap, cinematics, etc) would have been an impossibility for the studio that made Solasta. I would guess they did not have the financial support to make that happen.
Personally, I think of it as being of a piece with the old Infinity Engine games. There was the Baldurs Gate series, which, in classic CRPG fashion, was all about player choice and character. But, side by side with those games, you had the Icewind Dale series, which was almost completely devoid of the story focus of the BG games and entirely focused on dungeon crawling and seeing how far the ruleset can be pushed.
I love starting in a tavern and having some run in in a panic screaming “UNDEEEEEEAD!!” and just drop a horde on the table. No time to think, no time to explain. The story starts later, right now you have to fight for your life together with whomever is able to hold at least a table leg.
I disagree, and now think Larian should start every game like this. Next Divinity? Pirate ship. Games Workshop has them make a game? Escape from a Citadel.
Every Tad says “ah shit, here we go again…”
It’s canonically always the same Tav repeatedly getting dragged into these weird “save the world” situations.
Are we just playing high fantasy Quantum Leap?
They could turn that into a running theme, like how every Elder Scrolls protagonist is a prisoner to start with…
But Divinity already has a long history and so does Baldur’s Gate so…ehh, doesn’t fit in quite as well. Maybe with a new IP they make it a tradition for.
It’s icewind dale or arcanum
More Arcanum would be very welcome.
I think I would cry tears of joy if we got another Arcanum
Really I just miss games that are intensely and deeply “written”…Like Arcanum, Morrowind, or Disco Elysium. I want a game that is actually several books encased in game software. BG3 is close, but I want something even denser. I’ll be so gratified if Larian is on the same page.
I know what you mean. Disco was such a treat in that respect yeah. I love those kinds of literary games, where you can feel an author reaching out across the medium and actually trying to communicate something to you. Like there is a message in the game other than just supporting gameplay or engagement.
Please PLEASE fix the inventory mechanics/design
Cyberpunk cyberpunk cyberpunk please please please
Divinity 2 mechanics > BG3 even though BG3 is obviously the ultimate masterpiece. Pumped to see what they do
I enjoyed BG3 more than any game since Witcher: Wild Hunt. Do you think Divinity 2 would be for me? I am looking for a new long play game.
Yes. I personally prefer the combat of Divinity 2, but overall they are very, very similar games
If you are going to play Divinity 2, start with Divinity 1
They both have differences in mechanics, but play about the same. The only main difference is that Divinity is only 2 player, while Divinity 2 is 4 player like BG3
Also, the mechanics of both Divinity games are build around it being video games. Meaning it is a better experience. In comparison with BG3, which was build as a TTRPG and only converted to a video game.
The only things I miss with Divinity are the cutscenes. Otherwise they would be as perfect (or even better) than BG3.
Thank you. I will check it out.
I’m gonna disagree with that other commenter. I’d recommend starting with DOS2 before 1. DOS2 is much more refined and generally less annoying to play. And they’re separate stories, so nothing in 2 would spoil the experience of 1
But they’re both good games worth playing, so don’t let that indecision stop you from trying either
Thank you for another perspective. I might just jump in.
Also know you can play 2 player local natively built into the story in both games so if you have a roommate or SO it’s a really fun time!
I like the idea of local coop game play. Online gaming not really my thing.
yes
It’s highly similar. You need to try it
Thank you. I will check it out.
Absolutely.
Thank you. I will check it out.
I’m not sure I agree. DoS2 mechanic are cool, but the combat becomes way to chaotic for my liking. Also you do one mistake and now half your party is dead and the other half is on fire.
That was exactly what I loved about DoS2
That’s fair. To each their own.
If we are taking about battle mechanics I hope they come up with a new system all together. I think both the OS2 and BG3/DnD mechanics were serviceable, and it was fun to play out fights. But neither was much of a challenge and fights didn’t often feel like unique puzzles.
Yeah – I just mean their ability to make a system for video games is better than paper adaptation
Pathfinder please!