Like for many other people, Valve single player experiences were one of my favorite of all time growing up. I considered both Half-Life and Portal to be masterpieces. It’s true they’ve always been distracted with multiplayer games as well, things like Counter-Strike or Team Fortress and I did play them for sure, because I was a kid and I had all the time in the world.
These days I’m not a kid anymore and so when I game I tend to look more for memorable experiences instead of mindless grinding. Obviously I remember Valve as the experts in creating memorable experiences and I would like them to keep fully exploring those talents. They don’t have that many employees, but they do have all the money in the world, no external pressure, no publisher to shit on them, it’s just their developers and artists and a vision. But then they use all that and create this. An Overwatch looking moba shooter, really? I’m sure people will like and play it, but is this the results of the vision and ambition of a company like Valve?
It doesn’t have to be Half-Life. I remember them saying that they dont want to do another one in the series because they are looking to innovate and make something truly original. My body is ready, give me anything. I can’t imagine a moba shooter really fits with this description. I’m wondering how such a low hanging concept even becomes a real product at a company as ambitious as Valve.
I hear people are having fun with the new game and I’m happy for them. I am no longer the target audience and I wish them good luck with it. In the mean time let me hear your thoughts on it. Would you like to see another single player experience from Valve?
Any organization that sees success will attract profit-driven leadership, and will become such over time. The soul from the original founders will be watered down, dampened, or ejected.
A profit-driven organization will over time become more and more profit-seeking, never less. Once this reaches a certain threshold, we start to use phrases like “enshittification”. Valve hasn’t gone shit yet imho, but their soul and passion doesn’t seem to lie in games anymore.
The next excellent product comes from new, growing organizations or small teams that may grow into such.
It is best to just treat it as any other law of nature and so we move on from Blizzard, Google, EA, Valve, Epic Games, Unity, etc and go swim in the wonderful vibrant indie scene.
Got access to it a few days ago. I played it for a few hours. Here’s my take:
It’s just a tps dota
Now, I don’t mind that too much. My problem is with the plethora of issues combat has
Despite there being damage falloff, you are directly decentivised from fighting in close range. This is because you both have little minions on both sides that attack the enemy and heal you. Why would you jump into that? Why would you give up your source of healing?
It’s way too easy to retreat. So you just poked and prodded the enemy for 3-4 minutes, finally got into a favourable position, pushed in, and they’re already on the zipline out of there. Sure, this is good for you, you can attack their sentinel. But attacking their sentinel isn’t fun. It just stands there and attacks your minions. You’re punished too much for dying, why would you risk it?
The stun abilities are atrocious. Picture this: you and an enemy found each other without support. You’re deep in a close range firefight, having fun for once in the game. Then this rando pokes their head around a corner, stuns you, and you’re dead before the stun ends. Why is this in any game?
Most hero weapons feel like you’re shooting wet paper towels. The majority of them are fast-shooting, but not in a good CS way. More like “I sincerely hope this is changed and these are just placeholders” way. The few that actually feel good to play (such as the girl with the green arm or the greaser dude) either lack damage in general or damage in mid-long range fights, the majority of the game
The most fun I had in this game had nothing to do with objectives or lanes or teamwork. It was when I was going between lanes and found an enemy doing the same, causing a close ranged battle. Makes me wish they just made this as another TF2
Valve doesn’t want to make a buy to play game unless it’s something that pushes the medium forward somehow, which is the only reason Alyx was made. A PvP moba can be a source of continued revenue like all the other games they still support (and one they don’t).
For me it was the themeing. Games like League of Legends try to come up with weird reasons why the games work the way they do and it feels silly. SMNC leaned into the goofiness. Instead of killing a dragon for gold you’d have to catch the Mascot. I wanna say you’d get stuff from brands to help you out but I can’t remember.
I’m stoked about Deadlock. I used to play Super Monday Night Combat constantly, until it shut down.
I’ve been waiting like 10 years to get a decent game that fills that void, and Deadlock seems to finally be it! I personally couldn’t be happier with their choice hah.
Ok, I’m a bit out of the loop but is Deadlock actually any good? Like, most of what I’ve heard is that it just isn’t very fun. Even though they kinda fell apart the auto battler and the card game from Valve were generally fairly well received from what I remember. But everything I’ve heard about Deadlock is that it’s not fun, and is bringing the worst elements of DOTA with it.
Maybe since it’s barely even a thing yet, it might wildly change since that’s part of the Valve MO.
The thing is I don’t think it has anything to offer to bring in people from outside the genre. Some people really enjoy it but you kinda have to already be into that kind of thing (DOTA).
I am now 45. I tried Deadlock, was overwhelmed, some other player told me to “fuck off” through the vocal chat because I was in the wrong lane, I uninstalled.
Generally, I don’t have time anymore to play online games that are about grind and skill.
I don’t want to play only one sort of game.
I want a game with an end so that I can move to another one.
MOBAs were cool at the time of warcraft 3. Let’s move on.
If youre looking for a game with an end then you might wanna stick to single player. Online multiplayer is designed to keep players coming back for more
I enjoy MOBAs a lot, but their communities tend to be so toxic… I’m playing other multiplayer games because I am tired of the toxicity (among other things).
My immediate emotional reaction is to dunk on you. Boo hoo, a company won’t make a game you want.
But you’re missing the valve you grew up with, and gaming is worse off now. Multiplayer games with subscription models and microtransactions have become the default, and we all feel it.
For me Deadlock has great characters, lore, new interesting mechanics, and only surface level similarities with DOTA. I’m not upset about it really. Just happy Valve is making anything again. Maybe I’m worn down, but so many big companies take but shits everyday I’m just happy to see one building good shit. (And it’s free!)
So you said “boo hoo” to people that don’t like how microstransactions, subscription models, and the like? You are not upset that the state of gaming in AAA landscape have degraded?
And isn’t everything derivative? What’s the issue with that? If feel like you’re really trying to gather negativity towards this game simply because it doesn’t pander to your tastes
Well, I guess your are right that everything is derivative. I also think some things are more alike than others and also some markets are more saturated than others. When Half-Life came out it was in a saturated market of FPSs but it also revolutionized the market. When Portal came out no one could compare it to anything other that a student project. Half-Life Alyx is still considered the no 1 most polished and complete game in the VR space. We’ll see the impact that Deadlock will have I guess.
Even if it is, it’s a derivation I’ve been sorely missing. Ever since Battleborn got shut down, there’s been a Battleborn shaped hole in my heart. Deadlock fits in that hole really well.
It’s possible that the whole impetus for creating Deadlock came from something like that. Someone at valve, like me, enjoyed the hell out this particular mix of mechanics.
There’s nothing like it. Dota doesn’t do the trick, neither does Overwatch. Of all things, the closest thing might be Titanfall 2’s titan combat.
Did you ever try Paladins? I somehow ended up playing Battleborn when it came out and really liked it, even though it got panned. Always thought Paladins was a close second.
Also calling Overwatch a “MOBA shooter” is like calling Mario Kart a “Rogue like racer” because you start each race fresh with everything reset. It’s just an FPS, nothing MOBA about it.
I personally think MOBA should be used to broadly describe a style of game rather than what’s done while playing it. I know that when Riot coined the term, they were referring to games like DotA, LoL, etc.; to me the whole approach to a match’s flow is echoed similarly enough throughout multiple games, that applying the term MOBA to other games is a logical extension.
To me a game is a MOBA if:
The way to interact with it is primarily designed around playing with other players online (the M and O of MOBA.)
The goals of the players are against the goals of other players — ie. it’s competitive rather than cooperative (the B of MOBA.)
Any player at the beginning of a match has access to all the same options as any other player. This one is a little more vague, but as the A in MOBA stands for arena, I imagine it like a group of gladiators standing before a communal weapon rack that they’ll all pick from; no one has any options that the others don’t have access to.
Following these criteria, something like Overwatch is a MOBA, as is DotA, and ironically LoL isn’t as you have to unlock options meaning you don’t satisfy the arena condition. To differentiate games like DotA, Smite, Awesomenauts, Deadlock, etc., I prefer the term lane-pusher as that’s a lot more specific and understandable.
Does it really matter what it’s called? Not really. I mostly just do it so I can feel superior to Riot for coming up with a vague term that is applied, how I deem, incorrectly, while also excluding their own game from the term that they made to describe it.
Because it’s not identical. SMITE plays like the top down mobas but in a third person perspective. Deadlock plays like a third person shooter with moba elements.
but they do have all the money in the world, no external pressure, no publisher to shit on them, it’s just their developers and artists and a vision.
I think that’s part of the issue. Supposedly they do have multiple games in development and a large percentage of their employees are working on them. But they are content to let the creative and technical processes play out, without announcing too-ambitious release dates which inevitably get pushed back and still have a buggy game released. And sometimes they even cut their losses if a long term project just isn’t working out.
Why does this billion dollar company not do exaxtly what I expect them to😡 They made great games because those are the ones I like and now they make shitty games because I dont like them.
I percieve them as different to your run of the mill EA or Ubisoft, so I expect more from them. That’s on me I guess. I’m not angry though, just disappointed.
Artifact has good scores from critics, as does CS2, nothing from Zombies. Not sure one game from 20 years ago says much when it’s just 1.6 with bots. The game isn’t bad, people just expected more than that.
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The laws of captialism entropy:
Any organization that sees success will attract profit-driven leadership, and will become such over time. The soul from the original founders will be watered down, dampened, or ejected.
A profit-driven organization will over time become more and more profit-seeking, never less. Once this reaches a certain threshold, we start to use phrases like “enshittification”. Valve hasn’t gone shit yet imho, but their soul and passion doesn’t seem to lie in games anymore.
The next excellent product comes from new, growing organizations or small teams that may grow into such.
It is best to just treat it as any other law of nature and so we move on from Blizzard, Google, EA, Valve, Epic Games, Unity, etc and go swim in the wonderful vibrant indie scene.
This is just a reminder that Gabe Newell is just another billionaire and he collects yachts, he’s not your friend!
Got access to it a few days ago. I played it for a few hours. Here’s my take:
It’s just a tps dota
Now, I don’t mind that too much. My problem is with the plethora of issues combat has
Despite there being damage falloff, you are directly decentivised from fighting in close range. This is because you both have little minions on both sides that attack the enemy and heal you. Why would you jump into that? Why would you give up your source of healing?
It’s way too easy to retreat. So you just poked and prodded the enemy for 3-4 minutes, finally got into a favourable position, pushed in, and they’re already on the zipline out of there. Sure, this is good for you, you can attack their sentinel. But attacking their sentinel isn’t fun. It just stands there and attacks your minions. You’re punished too much for dying, why would you risk it?
The stun abilities are atrocious. Picture this: you and an enemy found each other without support. You’re deep in a close range firefight, having fun for once in the game. Then this rando pokes their head around a corner, stuns you, and you’re dead before the stun ends. Why is this in any game?
Most hero weapons feel like you’re shooting wet paper towels. The majority of them are fast-shooting, but not in a good CS way. More like “I sincerely hope this is changed and these are just placeholders” way. The few that actually feel good to play (such as the girl with the green arm or the greaser dude) either lack damage in general or damage in mid-long range fights, the majority of the game
The most fun I had in this game had nothing to do with objectives or lanes or teamwork. It was when I was going between lanes and found an enemy doing the same, causing a close ranged battle. Makes me wish they just made this as another TF2
Valve doesn’t want to make a buy to play game unless it’s something that pushes the medium forward somehow, which is the only reason Alyx was made. A PvP moba can be a source of continued revenue like all the other games they still support (and one they don’t).
I miss Super Monday Night Combat. (This is utterly unrelated to the post other than being a shooter/moba.)
I honestly can’t understand how that game still feels like it was so much better than all the clones that came for years after it!
For me it was the themeing. Games like League of Legends try to come up with weird reasons why the games work the way they do and it feels silly. SMNC leaned into the goofiness. Instead of killing a dragon for gold you’d have to catch the Mascot. I wanna say you’d get stuff from brands to help you out but I can’t remember.
Weren’t there just credible leaks on a sequel to Half Life Alyx that may or may not be Half Life 3.
There was a write up from one of the writers who worked on the series.
This was written after he and most of the team left Valve.
Anyone have an invite for Deadlock?
I’m stoked about Deadlock. I used to play Super Monday Night Combat constantly, until it shut down.
I’ve been waiting like 10 years to get a decent game that fills that void, and Deadlock seems to finally be it! I personally couldn’t be happier with their choice hah.
Glad I’m not the only one who thought of that game when I heard of deadlock
Ok, I’m a bit out of the loop but is Deadlock actually any good? Like, most of what I’ve heard is that it just isn’t very fun. Even though they kinda fell apart the auto battler and the card game from Valve were generally fairly well received from what I remember. But everything I’ve heard about Deadlock is that it’s not fun, and is bringing the worst elements of DOTA with it.
Maybe since it’s barely even a thing yet, it might wildly change since that’s part of the Valve MO.
It’s big and complicated and smooth but ultimately nothing special
The thing is I don’t think it has anything to offer to bring in people from outside the genre. Some people really enjoy it but you kinda have to already be into that kind of thing (DOTA).
+100, my feelings exactly.
I am now 45. I tried Deadlock, was overwhelmed, some other player told me to “fuck off” through the vocal chat because I was in the wrong lane, I uninstalled.
Generally, I don’t have time anymore to play online games that are about grind and skill. I don’t want to play only one sort of game. I want a game with an end so that I can move to another one.
MOBAs were cool at the time of warcraft 3. Let’s move on.
If youre looking for a game with an end then you might wanna stick to single player. Online multiplayer is designed to keep players coming back for more
I enjoy MOBAs a lot, but their communities tend to be so toxic… I’m playing other multiplayer games because I am tired of the toxicity (among other things).
All online games will have a certain amount of toxic players there. No exceptions.
Valve’s last two releases were Half Life Alyx and Aperture Desk Job. Both are single player games.
Aperture Desk Job even runs on Linux and Steam Deck.
What kind of statement is this? MOBAs are still insanely popular. And “move on”? as if there’s no reason to iterate or improve on a genre?
I don’t even play MOBAs but I’ve heard this same sentiment on arena shooters and it makes as much sense there as it does here.
Yeah you’re right. This statement was intended for me.
Everyone can of course play what they want.
My immediate emotional reaction is to dunk on you. Boo hoo, a company won’t make a game you want. But you’re missing the valve you grew up with, and gaming is worse off now. Multiplayer games with subscription models and microtransactions have become the default, and we all feel it.
For me Deadlock has great characters, lore, new interesting mechanics, and only surface level similarities with DOTA. I’m not upset about it really. Just happy Valve is making anything again. Maybe I’m worn down, but so many big companies take but shits everyday I’m just happy to see one building good shit. (And it’s free!)
So you said “boo hoo” to people that don’t like how microstransactions, subscription models, and the like? You are not upset that the state of gaming in AAA landscape have degraded?
I say to you, “Waaa waaa” then.
Lol nope, Deadlock has nothing like that in it. It’s an excellent example of what we would ask for in our online multiplayer games.
I am not happy about it, but complaining about Deadlock is spitting on what we should be rewarding imo
They are doing what they like, you would be complaining about them making games without passion, make they really like tf2 and Dota lol
I wish they’d at least do some fun story driven coop stuff instead of only pvp stuff. But, I miss the single player days.
“An overwatch looking moba shooter”
No, it plays like Battleborn and Monday Night Combat, a third person shooter with moba elements. It’s not overwatch, it’s not Dota.
Well, that’s a name I haven’t heard in a while.
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The point stands that it’s derivative. I’m convinced Valve can do better.
And isn’t everything derivative? What’s the issue with that? If feel like you’re really trying to gather negativity towards this game simply because it doesn’t pander to your tastes
Well, I guess your are right that everything is derivative. I also think some things are more alike than others and also some markets are more saturated than others. When Half-Life came out it was in a saturated market of FPSs but it also revolutionized the market. When Portal came out no one could compare it to anything other that a student project. Half-Life Alyx is still considered the no 1 most polished and complete game in the VR space. We’ll see the impact that Deadlock will have I guess.
Even if it is, it’s a derivation I’ve been sorely missing. Ever since Battleborn got shut down, there’s been a Battleborn shaped hole in my heart. Deadlock fits in that hole really well.
It’s possible that the whole impetus for creating Deadlock came from something like that. Someone at valve, like me, enjoyed the hell out this particular mix of mechanics.
There’s nothing like it. Dota doesn’t do the trick, neither does Overwatch. Of all things, the closest thing might be Titanfall 2’s titan combat.
Did you ever try Paladins? I somehow ended up playing Battleborn when it came out and really liked it, even though it got panned. Always thought Paladins was a close second.
No. Some also like Gigantic, but they never appealed to me enough to try em.
I was in the Battleborn beta, and had such a blast I absolutely had to keep playing, so I bought it day one.
I was really sad to see it be loved by those that played it, and hated as an “Overwatch clone” by everyone else.
Gigantic: Rampage Edition is free to claim on Epic Games this week, so if you might be interested in the future, it would be worth grabbing now.
Also calling Overwatch a “MOBA shooter” is like calling Mario Kart a “Rogue like racer” because you start each race fresh with everything reset. It’s just an FPS, nothing MOBA about it.
I think they’re calling deadlock a moba, not overwatch
I personally think MOBA should be used to broadly describe a style of game rather than what’s done while playing it. I know that when Riot coined the term, they were referring to games like DotA, LoL, etc.; to me the whole approach to a match’s flow is echoed similarly enough throughout multiple games, that applying the term MOBA to other games is a logical extension.
To me a game is a MOBA if:
Following these criteria, something like Overwatch is a MOBA, as is DotA, and ironically LoL isn’t as you have to unlock options meaning you don’t satisfy the arena condition. To differentiate games like DotA, Smite, Awesomenauts, Deadlock, etc., I prefer the term lane-pusher as that’s a lot more specific and understandable.
Does it really matter what it’s called? Not really. I mostly just do it so I can feel superior to Riot for coming up with a vague term that is applied, how I deem, incorrectly, while also excluding their own game from the term that they made to describe it.
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I don’t get how everyone keeps comparing it to those games when Smite exists and it’s damn near identical?!
Because it’s not identical. SMITE plays like the top down mobas but in a third person perspective. Deadlock plays like a third person shooter with moba elements.
I think they’re comparing it visually to overwatch
I think that’s part of the issue. Supposedly they do have multiple games in development and a large percentage of their employees are working on them. But they are content to let the creative and technical processes play out, without announcing too-ambitious release dates which inevitably get pushed back and still have a buggy game released. And sometimes they even cut their losses if a long term project just isn’t working out.
Why does this billion dollar company not do exaxtly what I expect them to😡 They made great games because those are the ones I like and now they make shitty games because I dont like them.
I percieve them as different to your run of the mill EA or Ubisoft, so I expect more from them. That’s on me I guess. I’m not angry though, just disappointed.
Have they released bad games?
There’s been a bunch of Counter Strike releases that got very negative receptions
Is Artifact still active at all?
Can’t see bad reviews for any of those from critics.
https://www.metacritic.com/game/artifact/
https://www.metacritic.com/game/counter-strike-condition-zero/
https://www.metacritic.com/game/counter-strike-2/
https://www.metacritic.com/game/counter-strike-nexon-zombies/
Artifact has good scores from critics, as does CS2, nothing from Zombies. Not sure one game from 20 years ago says much when it’s just 1.6 with bots. The game isn’t bad, people just expected more than that.
And why is critics’ opinion more important than the opinion of the actual players?
Artifact yeah
https://www.metacritic.com/game/artifact/
Critic reviews aren’t bad at all. People review bombed it though.