Jokes on them. If they replace everyone’s job with AI there will be a whole lot of unemployed people with nothing better to do other than build guillotines.
AI is no where good enough for that. But these rich fucks want their customers to accept shitty quality and to force artists and developers to accept shitty pay so that they can keep more for themselves. Hence, they are so obsessed with AI.
Yes I know. That pisses me off the most. I hate how rich fucks will do anything to avoid paying people or hiring people. It’s like they are willfully ignorant of the idea that if there are no employees, there will be no customers.
Current AI is not something that will get much better than this through iteration alone. Current ‘AI’ technologies are hardly more than statistical parrots. We are missing many fundamental pieces to create an actual AI that is more intelligent than a bug.
That’s not a bug though, AI just doesn’t know what a finger is. You can fix some of these problems through iteration, but it’s still not going to know what a finger is.
I had a thought earlier in the bathroom about AI. It’s like building a fancy indoor toilet when you don’t have plumbing.
If people’s basic needs were met, housing food health care all that, then it wouldn’t really matter as much if people want to fuck around with AI. People who do things for passion could still do so.
But we live in a capitalist hell, this AI stuff will primarily benefit the ownership class while everyone else suffers.
I don’t need a fancy toilet. I need clean running water.
If anyone here is playing KC:D2, the actor for Hans Capon (Luke Dale) made a mini-docu on the threat of AI to voice acting. I thought it was well edited and presented the problem in a very digestible way for those who know little about AI, so here it is for anyone interested: https://youtu.be/R55QzK8Hles
I am playing that, and I don’t know if the story always goes this way, or if I just suck so bad at speech craft and the game changed based on my dialogue failures, but Hans and Henry hate each other now.
I just started it up yesterday, and went to bed right after their big fight. So it does sound like that was supposed to happen. Now I wonder if I could have avoided being arrested. Like I have failed every single speech check the game has given me, and I know at least 2 things could have been way different than it ended up going because of those failures. lol
No, there’s a few dialogue choices but they’ll all result in Hans hating you at the start of the game. I had to replay the intro for missed achievements (initially pirated to benchmark/see if I liked the game b4 buying) and did different choices up to the big fight. The intro is railroaded.
Don’t worry too much about early game speech checks. The game knows your skill levels are low, so the story plays into Henry needing to improve. Also, don’t be afraid to flee a fight you aren’t prepared for. You won’t majorly ruin future content unless you start murder hobo-ing. Enjoy the game! It’s quite a treat in my opinion :)
I’m about half way through Blood in the Machine by Brian Merchant, a book about the Luddites, and one of the things he’s emphasised quite a lot is the complaints of people at the time about the lower quality of automated textiles compared to artisan-made ones.
You should be a Luddite because they were right. My point wasn’t that we should embrace AI (trust me, I’m one of its most dedicated haters), but that just because technology produces lower quality goods doesn’t mean it won’t catch on. It’s going to take more than jeering mockery to stop capitalist embracing something that lets them deskill workers.
True. To stop the spiral into more and more shitty world is going to take some fundamental work
/theatrical sigh/
Guess I will be questioning why the hell it had not been done already thousands of years before I was born for many more years to come
The problem is the way they’re pushing the tools as magic lamps, and shoving them down everyone’s throats.
AI is a really neat tool that got dragged into an incredibly toxic system that enshittified it. Not a useful tool to help development, no, skip straight to replacing employees even if it doesn’t freaking work.
Just a reminder you can say fucking here. Fucking fuck shit you can, and holy fucking dogshit does that cunt fucking AI bullshit not even fucking work to replace a fucking intern, let alone a full ass engineer.
It’s not the tool that’s the problem. It’s the capitalists controlling it.
The luddites didn’t oppose technology just for the sake of it. They opposed the use of it to displace workers. And there is absolutely a role for AI in all this that doesn’t involve anyone losing their jobs, if we can change who is in control of it.
Personally, I’m looking forward to seeing what can be done with the tech to make each person’s experience unique, with bespoke quests and dialogue. Maybe one day playing a game like Skyrim for 10 years doesn’t have to mean playing the same quests over and over. It’ll be cool comparing how our playthroughs differ from each other, as the AI changes the game to suit each person.
“AI” can’t do that, because we have nothing approaching artificial intelligence yet-we have a statistical model based on finding averages. it can only do mass produced pablum. all the quests will become the same ‘a skyrim quest’. the technology currently being called “AI” will literally never be capable of doing this, at no scale, and it has largely reached the largest scale it can possibly work on with the amount of information available, and it’s getting hapsburgy with the data equivalent of inbreeding+prions, so it can’t really improve on future information.
and you can’t really make something smart enough to do what you’re describing well without being a person who would need autonomy and freedom and stuff, because slavery is bad. creativity is kind of a big deal.
and you are completely missing so god damn many of the points of art. which video games are.
I understand where a lot of the opposition to AI comes from. I get it. But when you’re so deep in the opposition that you’re saying it’ll never do thing that it’s already doing, you’re obviously just pushing an agenda without facts backing it up.
This is like arguing calculators sully math, because it should be done with an abacus.
it’s not AI, dude. not even ‘kind of a dumb guy equivalent, but genuinely intelligence’. if it was, I’d be saying it has rights and we have a duty to keep these models running because they’re people and shit.
but it’s not, and it’s being used to run out the clock and fuck up labor so the world ends of climate change before we have a revolution, and the billionaires can retreat to their bunkers.
seeing what can be done with the tech to make each person’s experience unique, with bespoke quests and dialogue.
That being possible would be fundamentally a level up from what they are now. I’ve read a paper on this someone linked in a Lemmy thread a year or so ago.
Maybe one day playing a game like Skyrim for 10 years doesn’t have to mean playing the same quests over and over.
I think a more manual approach would work, of a world model like Crusader Kings has, with traits and ties and opinions and random events of NPCs between each other and towards the player, and that AI being used simply to rephrase and slightly adjust descriptions and sequences of events - then maybe.
But consider how many NPCs that means and how many others they meet in their simulated lives, and how hard it would be to debug a story line to ensure that it’s always playable.
An LLM is not, strictly speaking, necessary here, and if used, doesn’t make it easier.
If the working class doesn’t have work, the working class doesn’t have the money to buy the shit the CEOs have their companies put out, which will have the CEOs lose money.
But CEOs don’t think that far ahead. Because their bean counting education didn’t teach that.
it’s about who does the work, who gets the rewards, and who decides what work gets done.
their ideal is: slaves, who get the bare minimum to survive, but not into old age. the king (which all of these delusional oligarchs think they’ll be). the king (which all of them think they’ll be).
AI could have some pretty cool uses as an enhancement to voice actors. Imagine all of the NPCs in an RPG being able to say the customized name of your character aloud instead of everyone using a title or nickname that you were assigned. It’s a real shame that we have to use everything for evil instead.
Exactly. I think there are legitimate usages for this technology (eg voices for dynamic content, or when the original voice actor is dead or not available to voice again his/her characters). But everything should be done with the consent of the voice actors, and not in an attempt to replace the work that could be done by a voice actor in the first place.
It probably won’t happen, since money leads the way :/.
I’ve seen lover’s lab. I know what kind of things NPCs will be forced to call the player.
But it would also be tempting to name a character Jugemu Jugemu Go-Kō-no-Surikire Kaijari-suigyo no Suigyō-matsu Unrai-matsu Fūrai-matsu Kū-Neru Tokoro ni Sumu Tokoro Yaburakōji no Burakōji Paipo Paipo Paipo no Shūringan Shūringan no Gūrindai Gūrindai no Ponpokopii no Ponpokonā no Chōkyūmei no Chōsuke.
SAG et al have already more or less abandoned voice actors. In the very near future it won’t matter if actors agree to work for these companies because they won’t NEED those actors. They’ll have training data or they’ll pay randos off the street to generate some training data that they then heavily tweak to sound like Ashley Burch and so forth.
And before people pretend that consumers won’t stand for that: Anyone with any knowledge of scene composition or lighting clowns on Netflix et al near constnatly. Guess what the super popular movies that everyone watches are? Because, yeah, there will still be works of art like a Blade Runner or even an Anora (the plot was shite but the cinematography was peak). They’ll pale in comparison to people pretending they aren’t going to watch Happy Gilmore 2.
And same with VA. People will claim they are opposed and it is horrible and complete trash compared to a human… and they’ll still buy the games until having “human” voice acting is the exception and only for “arthouse” games.
SAG et al have already more or less abandoned voice actors.
As one who has a spouse who is a member, yup. I think that it’s elitism sabotaging the solidarity. Silver screen actors want to see themselves as better than voice/video game actors so, instead of pushing for massive membership drives and organizing an industry that desperately needs it, they sell them down the river with contracts with AI companies. It’s a bit infuriating. SAG has the resources to destroy non-union acting in video games but seldom shows any signs of being inclined to stand by they colleagues.
I think Béart is a good voice actor but I don’t think that gives her special insight into the future of AI development. On the contrary, those people who would lose both money and meaning if a certain task is done well by a machine will be biased towards underestimating the probability that that task will be done well by a machine in the near future.
I guess it’s about how you see quality. There are many products that are mass produced but if something is handmade, people see value in it to this day.
When or if AI will reach the point you describe… there will be still something special behind a performance done by a living flesh and blood person.
AI may have its place, but I don’t think it should be the be all end all
I think that even in the scenario where AI is great at voice acting, there will be human voice actors left in the same way that there are people who perform live music left - a tiny number of superstars (new AIs will be trained on their performances), a few talented but obscure professionals who manage to make a relatively meager a living, and some hobbyists who do it for fun. There might even be more human voice actors than there are now simply because of population growth (or rather because of the growth of the population well-off enough to worry about that sort of thing). However, what Béart seems to be saying is that there won’t be excellent AI voice acting, not that at least some human voice actors will have jobs despite the AI, and I don’t think she’s particularly qualified to make that prediction.
(I admit that I am baffled by the fact that people think AI won’t be able to do something at all simply because AI isn’t particularly good at doing it right now. Why are these people ignoring the extremely rapid rate of progress of AI?)
Good point. Kinda like the animators at animation studios that refused to move to the computer for their work, where are they all now? As technology progresses, people eother adapt or get left behind.
I’m actually somewhat sympathetic to those guys, at least because an older relative of mine was a skilled mechanical engineer who simply could not make the transition from pencil-and-paper drafting to CAD software despite trying very hard. He had the common “old people have difficulty using computers” problem despite actually having a great deal of interest in the new technology.
With that said, he was out of a job whether or not he deserved that.
I’m not saying they deserve to lose their job if they don’t learn the new tools, I’m just saying technology isn’t going to wait because some people get mad about it, you know?
I personally love the look of old hand drawn animation compared to the new computer-made stuff. But there is no denying that the pay-to-work-effort ratio is drastically better for animators now because of computers. Animators that learned the new tools don’t have to work as much as they used to before computers, especially if comething needed changes, and thus get better pay for the amount of work they have to do. Same idea with farmers when tractors were invented, many situations where the same idea applies.
And the thing about art is that there will literally always be a market for human created art. Even if people have to pay extra for it, they will. Real human artists will never not exist.
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Well yeah, AI is a tool for the wealthy to remove economic opportunities from the working class.
Now get back in the mine, slave.
Jokes on them. If they replace everyone’s job with AI there will be a whole lot of unemployed people with nothing better to do other than build guillotines.
their content will suck too
Most of it already does?
AI is no where good enough for that. But these rich fucks want their customers to accept shitty quality and to force artists and developers to accept shitty pay so that they can keep more for themselves. Hence, they are so obsessed with AI.
Sorry to be the one to inform you but it’s already happening. Many places are turning to AI art to avoid paying artists.
Yes I know. That pisses me off the most. I hate how rich fucks will do anything to avoid paying people or hiring people. It’s like they are willfully ignorant of the idea that if there are no employees, there will be no customers.
That’s awesome. Human expression is unpredictable and dangerous and the faster we move past it the better.
AI is just an excuse to get a bigger piece of the pie.
Yup… As if they don’t already have pretty much the entire pie.
AI pay pie 🤔
Can’t reach perfection without iteration.
Current AI is not something that will get much better than this through iteration alone. Current ‘AI’ technologies are hardly more than statistical parrots. We are missing many fundamental pieces to create an actual AI that is more intelligent than a bug.
I hate it when bugs draw too many fingers on a hand, ugh
That’s not a bug though, AI just doesn’t know what a finger is. You can fix some of these problems through iteration, but it’s still not going to know what a finger is.
Read the comment above mine. I wasnt talking about a bug in code but an insect.
OK. I thought that was just poor grammar, which is fairly common on the internet. Carry on.
I yearn for the mines.
ROCK AND STONE!
hot take: Deep Rock Galactic >> Helldivers 2
I had a thought earlier in the bathroom about AI. It’s like building a fancy indoor toilet when you don’t have plumbing.
If people’s basic needs were met, housing food health care all that, then it wouldn’t really matter as much if people want to fuck around with AI. People who do things for passion could still do so.
But we live in a capitalist hell, this AI stuff will primarily benefit the ownership class while everyone else suffers.
I don’t need a fancy toilet. I need clean running water.
If anyone here is playing KC:D2, the actor for Hans Capon (Luke Dale) made a mini-docu on the threat of AI to voice acting. I thought it was well edited and presented the problem in a very digestible way for those who know little about AI, so here it is for anyone interested: https://youtu.be/R55QzK8Hles
I am playing that, and I don’t know if the story always goes this way, or if I just suck so bad at speech craft and the game changed based on my dialogue failures, but Hans and Henry hate each other now.
How far in are you? In the beginning section of the game, >!Henry and Hans have a big fallout, but it eases up after the first main story beat!<.
::: spoiler warningSpoilered content:::I just started it up yesterday, and went to bed right after their big fight. So it does sound like that was supposed to happen. Now I wonder if I could have avoided being arrested. Like I have failed every single speech check the game has given me, and I know at least 2 things could have been way different than it ended up going because of those failures. lol
No, there’s a few dialogue choices but they’ll all result in Hans hating you at the start of the game. I had to replay the intro for missed achievements (initially pirated to benchmark/see if I liked the game b4 buying) and did different choices up to the big fight. The intro is railroaded.
Don’t worry too much about early game speech checks. The game knows your skill levels are low, so the story plays into Henry needing to improve. Also, don’t be afraid to flee a fight you aren’t prepared for. You won’t majorly ruin future content unless you start murder hobo-ing. Enjoy the game! It’s quite a treat in my opinion :)
I’m about half way through Blood in the Machine by Brian Merchant, a book about the Luddites, and one of the things he’s emphasised quite a lot is the complaints of people at the time about the lower quality of automated textiles compared to artisan-made ones.
Good point, I am checking myself periodically: have I become a luddite?
Well, we improved machines. We are not going to make the “AI” understand what a finger is and how many of them humans have
You should be a Luddite because they were right. My point wasn’t that we should embrace AI (trust me, I’m one of its most dedicated haters), but that just because technology produces lower quality goods doesn’t mean it won’t catch on. It’s going to take more than jeering mockery to stop capitalist embracing something that lets them deskill workers.
True. To stop the spiral into more and more shitty world is going to take some fundamental work
/theatrical sigh/ Guess I will be questioning why the hell it had not been done already thousands of years before I was born for many more years to come
“Hey, let’s go eat the rich, soldier!”
-Karlach from my daydreams
The problem is the way they’re pushing the tools as magic lamps, and shoving them down everyone’s throats.
AI is a really neat tool that got dragged into an incredibly toxic system that enshittified it. Not a useful tool to help development, no, skip straight to replacing employees even if it doesn’t freaking work.
I feel the same way about cryptocurrency, but with scams instead of jobs.
Just a reminder you can say fucking here. Fucking fuck shit you can, and holy fucking dogshit does that cunt fucking AI bullshit not even fucking work to replace a fucking intern, let alone a full ass engineer.
TikTok, Twitch, Youtube, etc etc did a number on people, training them to self censor like that.
It’s not the tool that’s the problem. It’s the capitalists controlling it.
The luddites didn’t oppose technology just for the sake of it. They opposed the use of it to displace workers. And there is absolutely a role for AI in all this that doesn’t involve anyone losing their jobs, if we can change who is in control of it.
Personally, I’m looking forward to seeing what can be done with the tech to make each person’s experience unique, with bespoke quests and dialogue. Maybe one day playing a game like Skyrim for 10 years doesn’t have to mean playing the same quests over and over. It’ll be cool comparing how our playthroughs differ from each other, as the AI changes the game to suit each person.
“AI” can’t do that, because we have nothing approaching artificial intelligence yet-we have a statistical model based on finding averages. it can only do mass produced pablum. all the quests will become the same ‘a skyrim quest’. the technology currently being called “AI” will literally never be capable of doing this, at no scale, and it has largely reached the largest scale it can possibly work on with the amount of information available, and it’s getting hapsburgy with the data equivalent of inbreeding+prions, so it can’t really improve on future information.
and you can’t really make something smart enough to do what you’re describing well without being a person who would need autonomy and freedom and stuff, because slavery is bad. creativity is kind of a big deal.
and you are completely missing so god damn many of the points of art. which video games are.
I understand where a lot of the opposition to AI comes from. I get it. But when you’re so deep in the opposition that you’re saying it’ll never do thing that it’s already doing, you’re obviously just pushing an agenda without facts backing it up.
This is like arguing calculators sully math, because it should be done with an abacus.
im saying either you’re selling pablum in ambrosia bottles, or it’s a mechanical turk to sell this shit.
because there’s so much shit being done to sell this shit, and the real effects of it are apocalyptic. I have no tolerance for boosters.
Ok, John Connor. Maybe chill out a bit.
it’s not AI, dude. not even ‘kind of a dumb guy equivalent, but genuinely intelligence’. if it was, I’d be saying it has rights and we have a duty to keep these models running because they’re people and shit.
but it’s not, and it’s being used to run out the clock and fuck up labor so the world ends of climate change before we have a revolution, and the billionaires can retreat to their bunkers.
That being possible would be fundamentally a level up from what they are now. I’ve read a paper on this someone linked in a Lemmy thread a year or so ago.
I think a more manual approach would work, of a world model like Crusader Kings has, with traits and ties and opinions and random events of NPCs between each other and towards the player, and that AI being used simply to rephrase and slightly adjust descriptions and sequences of events - then maybe.
But consider how many NPCs that means and how many others they meet in their simulated lives, and how hard it would be to debug a story line to ensure that it’s always playable.
An LLM is not, strictly speaking, necessary here, and if used, doesn’t make it easier.
No need to discuss it in future tense. There’s already mods that incorporate AI into Skyrim NPC’s. It’s impressive as hell.
The lifeless performances will come through in the end product. Wish them nothing but the worst.
“eXtRaCt VaLuE!!1”
ruins everything
“wHeRe MoNeY gO@!?”
Rinse, repeat, etc.
If the working class doesn’t have work, the working class doesn’t have the money to buy the shit the CEOs have their companies put out, which will have the CEOs lose money.
But CEOs don’t think that far ahead. Because their bean counting education didn’t teach that.
money is just a smoke screen.
it’s about who does the work, who gets the rewards, and who decides what work gets done.
their ideal is: slaves, who get the bare minimum to survive, but not into old age. the king (which all of these delusional oligarchs think they’ll be). the king (which all of them think they’ll be).
AI could have some pretty cool uses as an enhancement to voice actors. Imagine all of the NPCs in an RPG being able to say the customized name of your character aloud instead of everyone using a title or nickname that you were assigned. It’s a real shame that we have to use everything for evil instead.
Exactly. I think there are legitimate usages for this technology (eg voices for dynamic content, or when the original voice actor is dead or not available to voice again his/her characters). But everything should be done with the consent of the voice actors, and not in an attempt to replace the work that could be done by a voice actor in the first place.
It probably won’t happen, since money leads the way :/.
That requires creativity. CEOs don’t have that trait.
I’ve seen lover’s lab. I know what kind of things NPCs will be forced to call the player.
But it would also be tempting to name a character Jugemu Jugemu Go-Kō-no-Surikire Kaijari-suigyo no Suigyō-matsu Unrai-matsu Fūrai-matsu Kū-Neru Tokoro ni Sumu Tokoro Yaburakōji no Burakōji Paipo Paipo Paipo no Shūringan Shūringan no Gūrindai Gūrindai no Ponpokopii no Ponpokonā no Chōkyūmei no Chōsuke.
I’d go with Bob Maloogaloogaloogaloogalooga.
Sir hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
I want to agree with Beart but…
SAG et al have already more or less abandoned voice actors. In the very near future it won’t matter if actors agree to work for these companies because they won’t NEED those actors. They’ll have training data or they’ll pay randos off the street to generate some training data that they then heavily tweak to sound like Ashley Burch and so forth.
And before people pretend that consumers won’t stand for that: Anyone with any knowledge of scene composition or lighting clowns on Netflix et al near constnatly. Guess what the super popular movies that everyone watches are? Because, yeah, there will still be works of art like a Blade Runner or even an Anora (the plot was shite but the cinematography was peak). They’ll pale in comparison to people pretending they aren’t going to watch Happy Gilmore 2.
And same with VA. People will claim they are opposed and it is horrible and complete trash compared to a human… and they’ll still buy the games until having “human” voice acting is the exception and only for “arthouse” games.
As one who has a spouse who is a member, yup. I think that it’s elitism sabotaging the solidarity. Silver screen actors want to see themselves as better than voice/video game actors so, instead of pushing for massive membership drives and organizing an industry that desperately needs it, they sell them down the river with contracts with AI companies. It’s a bit infuriating. SAG has the resources to destroy non-union acting in video games but seldom shows any signs of being inclined to stand by they colleagues.
WTF? Why is this a thing?
Adam needs money I guess.
I think Béart is a good voice actor but I don’t think that gives her special insight into the future of AI development. On the contrary, those people who would lose both money and meaning if a certain task is done well by a machine will be biased towards underestimating the probability that that task will be done well by a machine in the near future.
I guess it’s about how you see quality. There are many products that are mass produced but if something is handmade, people see value in it to this day.
When or if AI will reach the point you describe… there will be still something special behind a performance done by a living flesh and blood person.
AI may have its place, but I don’t think it should be the be all end all
I think that even in the scenario where AI is great at voice acting, there will be human voice actors left in the same way that there are people who perform live music left - a tiny number of superstars (new AIs will be trained on their performances), a few talented but obscure professionals who manage to make a relatively meager a living, and some hobbyists who do it for fun. There might even be more human voice actors than there are now simply because of population growth (or rather because of the growth of the population well-off enough to worry about that sort of thing). However, what Béart seems to be saying is that there won’t be excellent AI voice acting, not that at least some human voice actors will have jobs despite the AI, and I don’t think she’s particularly qualified to make that prediction.
(I admit that I am baffled by the fact that people think AI won’t be able to do something at all simply because AI isn’t particularly good at doing it right now. Why are these people ignoring the extremely rapid rate of progress of AI?)
I’ll tell you why: because it can’t. If I give you a spoon, will you try to empty a sea with it?
Good point. Kinda like the animators at animation studios that refused to move to the computer for their work, where are they all now? As technology progresses, people eother adapt or get left behind.
I’m actually somewhat sympathetic to those guys, at least because an older relative of mine was a skilled mechanical engineer who simply could not make the transition from pencil-and-paper drafting to CAD software despite trying very hard. He had the common “old people have difficulty using computers” problem despite actually having a great deal of interest in the new technology.
With that said, he was out of a job whether or not he deserved that.
I’m not saying they deserve to lose their job if they don’t learn the new tools, I’m just saying technology isn’t going to wait because some people get mad about it, you know?
I personally love the look of old hand drawn animation compared to the new computer-made stuff. But there is no denying that the pay-to-work-effort ratio is drastically better for animators now because of computers. Animators that learned the new tools don’t have to work as much as they used to before computers, especially if comething needed changes, and thus get better pay for the amount of work they have to do. Same idea with farmers when tractors were invented, many situations where the same idea applies.
And the thing about art is that there will literally always be a market for human created art. Even if people have to pay extra for it, they will. Real human artists will never not exist.