The Hollow Knight wiki community is another in a long line of wiki communities choosing to leave Fandom behind. But why is that? What is it about Fandom that...
Fandom hosts a lot of wikis for long forgotten nich’e games and with these games there usually isn’t enough interest to move to another wiki. When it comes to these wikis theres rarely if ever a team behind updating the wiki and more often than not the content is just being updated and maintained by random invidividuals who just happen to be engaging with the content at given time. The very low barrier of entry makes this possible as you don’t really need to join a team to edit pages or even coordinate with other people.
When playing one of these games I like to record and share some my observations and findings about games mechanics etc but more often than not the only wiki I can find is fandom wiki that is either incomplete and possibly even abandoned. I cant be bothered to create my own Wiki for these games so I’ll just start editing that one instead because it’s easy, the foundation is usually already there and I don’t need to bother taking any sort of responsibility/mantle of maintainer or admin.
While Fandom may not be the most optimal choice and there may be better ways to host wiki out there its still better than some obnoxious google document or poorly formatted steam guide that no one else can edit.
What games are so small as to not be capable of generating a non fandom wiki, but are large enough that the wiki is not completely empty and factually incorrect?
The problem is that the content is already in wiki fandom and there are no contributors invested/interested enough to migrate all the information to alternative wiki. These fandom wikis have no teams just random individuals making contributions of various sizes.
If I do ever get invested enough to a game to actually create a wiki I’ll definately use something else than fandom.
Lemmy has more niche users (read: geeks/nerds) on one site than I’ve ever experienced.
It’s awesome, but man, I feel so out of my element. I thought I was a nerd on reddit but on lemmy I have like no idea what half of the users are talking about or consider normal. It’s legit fascinating, tbh. I really wish it was possible to see the demographics of users here
TLDR; Fandom has a lot of QAnon articles written to make the scams seem legitimate to less computer savvy people.
My mom has fallen in a Qanon conspiracy world. The people from that world write Fandom articles about themselves to make it seem legitimate. I found them when I started investigating these people trying to convince her to steer clear.
Another comment without watching so I might be repeating something in the video, but did they mention how poor bloated the site is? I was trying to use the Forgotten Realms wiki and after a few tabs it would grind my browser to a halt. For something that really just needs to be serving text and a few images it’s wild how badly the site performs.
My easy solution, whenever I land on a fandom page, is to add “anti” in front of the domain name, “antifandom” will filter out the crep out of the original page and present a clean version of the wiki. This is powered by BreezeWiki
It is called individious, there are many hosts you can choose from. In any instance, a youtube link you paste in the search bar gives you that video in individious. If a certain video is not working, you can use “Switch Individious Instance” to quickly jump to another.
Fandom is a wiki farm, meaning it hosts a bunch of wikis. Also they run on freely available software mediawiki.
Fandom has a couple main problems:
Barriers to entry are super low, verification for users takes place 4 days post account creation, with no other steps needed by the user. Paired with the limited options that moderators have for editing access on wikis and you have a wiki that is much tougher to moderate.
Ads. Fandom is for-profit. And that means super obtrusive ads that we’ve come to expect. But fandom also shoved ads in the middle of wiki pages, with admins having no control of where those should be placed. There’s also the matter of sketchy ads that are served to minors. Also, some of the ads are outdated but are for subsidiary companies of Fandom.
The Grimace Incident. Basically Fandom took over and turned the McDonald’s and grimace wikis into huge advertisements, wiping out the hard work that the actual wiki maintainers did. They also put in a bunch of factually incorrect information, literally going against the whole purpose of a wiki and really worrying other wikis, because what’s stopping Fandom from getting paid again and repeating the event with their wikis?
I’m sure I glossed over a bunch of the details but that’s the best I can do from memory.
Tbh mainly because of dumb content. I grew up with free TV so i understand and can life with some ads if the content can be used for free. Also tbh i still sometimes use it for music and that one video gaming magazine’s channel that i really like.
I feel like I’ve become somehow allergic to youtubers and such.
The video pretty much describes why Fandom is so bad and why many games are moving their wikis to alternative services, and why you should stop using it in general. Some examples include:
Ads everywhere, including autoplaying video ads that play another ad when they’re done. There are also ads sneakily inserted in the middle of articles that are related to the wiki, like a Gamespot review (Gamespot is owned by Fandom)
A sidebar you can’t remove that promotes their content
Fandom hijacked the community’s Mcdonald’s wiki to turn it into a giant advertisement
Accounts that are 4 days old can bypass restrictions and easily vandalize pages
Fandom sometimes introduces things nobody wants, such as AI generated answers that are usually wrong, take up the top half of the page, and with no way for wiki admins to remove it. They removed it after a lot of backlash but still…
When people fork their wikis to other sites, fandom refuses to let admins delete their old wikis. This makes new wikis difficult to start because Fandom usually ends up as the top result on search engines, even if they’re old abandoned wikis.
Oh yeah… Gamespot, that place existed and it was terrible always. Then you look at the other things Gamespot own and realize they all got butchered in terms of reliability and impact.
Seems like on that last one someone could go through and change all the content in every page to a link to the new wiki. A PIA? Certainly, but at least it would get the ball rolling and use the built up SEO from fandom to help your new site get views.
Unfortunately they just use a bot to revert those. You’re not allowed to truly migrate off fandom, all you can do is fork your own data and try to out-SEO the fandom wiki, because as soon as you put it.on fandom, fandom owns it too.
I wonder if you could use a bot and AI to write fake information and post that instead. Seems like fandom wouldn’t have enough game specific info to judge the accuracy, especially if it happened over time.
And then you learn about Fextra’s embedded twitch player that artificially inflates their twitch view count and pushes out smaller content creators who are actually trying to engage with a game’s audience.
God, I hate constantly seeing their channel with 50k+ views on Twitch. It’s insane that embedding the player throughout their entire website isn’t against TOS.
The video also calls out that one of the challenges in moving off of fandom is SEO. The fandom sites often are above the new sites even when the fandom site becomes a pile of unmaintained, vandalized garbage. This suggests that vandalism actually helps fandom.
The best thing we can do is not visit the sites and don’t link to them, instead using and linking to their new sites.
An extension called Indie Wiki Buddy can also help with this by helping direct you to known alternatives to fandom for specific franchises or falling back to Breezewiki-based instances that rehost Fandom content without all of the Fandom bloat. It also provides this filtering and hinting to search results too, so you don’t have to change your workflow too much to use it.
For just about every single pokemon fan game I play, the fandom wiki pages have pretty much been utter garbage. Either they’re out of date, contain almost no useful info, or have a slew of other problems making it as painful as falling in a bunch of cacti. Same for most other ones I used to visit.
Will admit, Pokemon Empire having their own site for their fan game is still infinitely better than the fandom pages for it.
I think bulbapedia cover just about any official content as far as I’m aware, so long as it’s licensed or made by nintento directly. Anything from the games to the anime to the trading cards to things like obscure licensed Japanese arcade games based on the franchise.
Don’t know if serebii does all that or if it just focuses on the games since I don’t use it.
I only use it for WoWpedia, because it has a lot of information from years ago. I still remember when they added so many unnecessary interface elements and the website became slower.
Luckily, I found https://userstyles.world/style/5722/clean-fandom-wiki, which made it usable again.
Why would we need a fediverse alternative 😂 unless you want to go around editing wikis with your mastodon account, wikis are basically just static webpages. It’s called HTML 😂
Wikis like Fandom typically make it easy/easier to create and edit pages. Wiki editors are rare and you want to make it as easy for them to latch onto helping and volunteering as is possible.
Maybe a fediverse option isn’t needed (though the below comment’s point about having a central account would make it easier for a lot of users), but having a convenient and easy way to create a wiki for your favorite fandom, without using Fandom would go a long way toward breaking Fandom’s hold over the entertainment sections of the internet.
Believe it or not, Wikipedia actually does use a single global account for all of its wikis. That includes Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikimedia Commons, and almost every other site listed on their website. The only one you have to create a separate account for is their test wiki where they test new versions of MediaWiki (the software they develop for their wikis).
Jimmy Wales actually isn’t as directly involved in Wikipedia as he once was. These days, he only holds the chair emeritus and the founder’s seat on the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees.
His chair position changed to a chair emeritus in 2006, and the site implemented the unified login feature in May 2008, though they’d been discussing implementing the feature since 2005.
I learned about this plug in the other day. Indie Wiki Buddy. It’s not a fediverse alternative, but it’s the next best thing. It can redirect your Fandom results to their independent alternatives.
Does this mean self-hosting the wiki?
Because that increase the barrier of entry by tenfold as a lot of publishers/game studios do not host their own wikis.
Unless the game your playing made their own, or someone else decided to self host and actually fill it with content (and finding it can be a pain), there isn’t one.
Hoping someone knows a good fallout wiki, I hate using fandom, but it’s the only one I can find with good info.
It really just depends on the fandom. Three more I know of are Bulbapedia for Pokemon, The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages for the Elder Scrolls, and Wookiepedia for Star Wars. They are all very comprehensive and functional.
I wish I could, but I like browsing Logopedia which is hosting on Fandom and has announced no plans to leave the site. If they did, I’d completely abandon that place and block everything that has to do with them.
And no, it’s not easy to migrate a database of hundreds of thousands of logos to another wikifarm, especially if new stuff arrives all the time.
This is one of the main reasons I use Kagi. I have sites like fandom and fextralife blocked in my search results.
One of the things I miss about early internet years was all the independent fan sites and forums people had. Now, so much is just posted to these garbage platforms that control everything.
and recently the AI written garbage “gamer” websites have become a problem as well. You can tell instantly that some ai just collected and regurgitated a bunch of text that doesn’t even make sense.
Now I pretty much stick just to the fan created wikis. Stuff like bg3.wiki and uesp.net
They game SEO to flood search results with articles that are pure, useless placeholders which most of the time will never be written. Even when they’re more than a placeholder page, they’re often wrong outside of a few games because they’re just there to get clicks. Downvote bots were used against links to competing wikis, and while Fextralife denies it, they were conveniently spared.
There is more shady behavior out there around Fextra, but the most important thing for a user is there is almost always a better wiki that’s being suppressed in the search results. If you blacklist the site you’re a lot more likely to find something useful.
Fextralife embeds their twitch stream into their site, artificially inflating their twitch viewer numbers, which in turn hurts smaller streamers since fextralife will be sorted first by viewer count.
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Welcome to the largest gaming community on Lemmy! Discussion for all kinds of games. Video games, tabletop games, card games etc.
Fandom hosts a lot of wikis for long forgotten nich’e games and with these games there usually isn’t enough interest to move to another wiki. When it comes to these wikis theres rarely if ever a team behind updating the wiki and more often than not the content is just being updated and maintained by random invidividuals who just happen to be engaging with the content at given time. The very low barrier of entry makes this possible as you don’t really need to join a team to edit pages or even coordinate with other people.
When playing one of these games I like to record and share some my observations and findings about games mechanics etc but more often than not the only wiki I can find is fandom wiki that is either incomplete and possibly even abandoned. I cant be bothered to create my own Wiki for these games so I’ll just start editing that one instead because it’s easy, the foundation is usually already there and I don’t need to bother taking any sort of responsibility/mantle of maintainer or admin.
While Fandom may not be the most optimal choice and there may be better ways to host wiki out there its still better than some obnoxious google document or poorly formatted steam guide that no one else can edit.
The reason you often cannot find smaller wikis is because this site killed them off.
All too common within attention economy for people to go for the more popular choice.
Search engine algorithms tend to make things even worse.
But there are games out there that might not even have wikis if Fandom didn’t make the barrier of entry so low.
What games are so small as to not be capable of generating a non fandom wiki, but are large enough that the wiki is not completely empty and factually incorrect?
Well old games like The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing: Final Cut or Moero Chronicles.
Neither of these where completely empty when I found them. Been updating them and filling some gaps in the wiki for the fun of it.
Many would consider both of these games “dead” by many metrics but people can still buy them, play them and have fun with them.
And wiki.gg wouldnt host them?
The problem is that the content is already in wiki fandom and there are no contributors invested/interested enough to migrate all the information to alternative wiki. These fandom wikis have no teams just random individuals making contributions of various sizes.
If I do ever get invested enough to a game to actually create a wiki I’ll definately use something else than fandom.
… Didnt you just say you made those 2 examples? Or did I misread
Easy. Never heard of it. Done.
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Lemmy has more niche users (read: geeks/nerds) on one site than I’ve ever experienced.
It’s awesome, but man, I feel so out of my element. I thought I was a nerd on reddit but on lemmy I have like no idea what half of the users are talking about or consider normal. It’s legit fascinating, tbh. I really wish it was possible to see the demographics of users here
TLDR; Fandom has a lot of QAnon articles written to make the scams seem legitimate to less computer savvy people.
My mom has fallen in a Qanon conspiracy world. The people from that world write Fandom articles about themselves to make it seem legitimate. I found them when I started investigating these people trying to convince her to steer clear.
I don’t trust a single thing on Fandom anymore.
I’ve always advocated against using Fandom. Not much customization and so many ads it makes the platform downright unusable.
A much better alternative is Wiki.gg, created by some of the original founders of Fandom.
Great suggestion, thanks.
Another comment without watching so I might be repeating something in the video, but did they mention how poor bloated the site is? I was trying to use the Forgotten Realms wiki and after a few tabs it would grind my browser to a halt. For something that really just needs to be serving text and a few images it’s wild how badly the site performs.
Yah. Fandom is an Adblock-required site. And even then it’s pretty hard to browse.
I got special Stylish CSS blocking half the shit on Fandom. IDK about any politics about them but the site is borderline unusable.
My easy solution, whenever I land on a fandom page, is to add “anti” in front of the domain name, “antifandom” will filter out the crep out of the original page and present a clean version of the wiki. This is powered by BreezeWiki
Example:
edit: typo, added example
That’s really cool!
Thanks for sharing, didn’t know that.
Could you give a summary? I stopped using youtube.
How about an alternative Link to the same video? https://inv.vern.cc/watch?v=qcfuA_UAz3I
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What does this even mean
How do you find these? You search alternative video players or is there some site where you enter a youtube url and it gives you alternatives?
It is called individious, there are many hosts you can choose from. In any instance, a youtube link you paste in the search bar gives you that video in individious. If a certain video is not working, you can use “Switch Individious Instance” to quickly jump to another.
Personally I use a browser extension called LibRedirect.
Worst TL;DR:
Fandom is a wiki farm, meaning it hosts a bunch of wikis. Also they run on freely available software mediawiki.
Fandom has a couple main problems:
Barriers to entry are super low, verification for users takes place 4 days post account creation, with no other steps needed by the user. Paired with the limited options that moderators have for editing access on wikis and you have a wiki that is much tougher to moderate.
Ads. Fandom is for-profit. And that means super obtrusive ads that we’ve come to expect. But fandom also shoved ads in the middle of wiki pages, with admins having no control of where those should be placed. There’s also the matter of sketchy ads that are served to minors. Also, some of the ads are outdated but are for subsidiary companies of Fandom.
The Grimace Incident. Basically Fandom took over and turned the McDonald’s and grimace wikis into huge advertisements, wiping out the hard work that the actual wiki maintainers did. They also put in a bunch of factually incorrect information, literally going against the whole purpose of a wiki and really worrying other wikis, because what’s stopping Fandom from getting paid again and repeating the event with their wikis?
I’m sure I glossed over a bunch of the details but that’s the best I can do from memory.
summarize.tech
Stop using Fandom
Why?
Sorry, that’s the best summary I could come up with
Did you stop using YouTube because of the intrusive ads and monetization?
Same issue with Fandom.
Tbh mainly because of dumb content. I grew up with free TV so i understand and can life with some ads if the content can be used for free. Also tbh i still sometimes use it for music and that one video gaming magazine’s channel that i really like.
I feel like I’ve become somehow allergic to youtubers and such.
Where’s that bot w the fedi links for videos?
Be the change you want to see.
You want me to be pipedbot ?
Yes, integrate yourself with the digital world! Translate the videos for us!
The video pretty much describes why Fandom is so bad and why many games are moving their wikis to alternative services, and why you should stop using it in general. Some examples include:
Ads everywhere, including autoplaying video ads that play another ad when they’re done. There are also ads sneakily inserted in the middle of articles that are related to the wiki, like a Gamespot review (Gamespot is owned by Fandom)
A sidebar you can’t remove that promotes their content
Fandom hijacked the community’s Mcdonald’s wiki to turn it into a giant advertisement
Accounts that are 4 days old can bypass restrictions and easily vandalize pages
Fandom sometimes introduces things nobody wants, such as AI generated answers that are usually wrong, take up the top half of the page, and with no way for wiki admins to remove it. They removed it after a lot of backlash but still…
When people fork their wikis to other sites, fandom refuses to let admins delete their old wikis. This makes new wikis difficult to start because Fandom usually ends up as the top result on search engines, even if they’re old abandoned wikis.
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Oh yeah… Gamespot, that place existed and it was terrible always. Then you look at the other things Gamespot own and realize they all got butchered in terms of reliability and impact.
When the OG crew left, so did I.
Seems like on that last one someone could go through and change all the content in every page to a link to the new wiki. A PIA? Certainly, but at least it would get the ball rolling and use the built up SEO from fandom to help your new site get views.
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Unfortunately they just use a bot to revert those. You’re not allowed to truly migrate off fandom, all you can do is fork your own data and try to out-SEO the fandom wiki, because as soon as you put it.on fandom, fandom owns it too.
I wonder if you could use a bot and AI to write fake information and post that instead. Seems like fandom wouldn’t have enough game specific info to judge the accuracy, especially if it happened over time.
Thank you
Fandom seems like my experience on Fextralife
And then you learn about Fextra’s embedded twitch player that artificially inflates their twitch view count and pushes out smaller content creators who are actually trying to engage with a game’s audience.
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The good thing is that they are going to stop abusers of the embed system like Fextralife, the new policy was announced at TwitchCon https://blog.twitch.tv/en/2023/10/20/everything-we-announced-at-twitchcon-las-vegas/
God, I hate constantly seeing their channel with 50k+ views on Twitch. It’s insane that embedding the player throughout their entire website isn’t against TOS.
You’re the best, thanks
What can we do with this information, I wonder…
The video also calls out that one of the challenges in moving off of fandom is SEO. The fandom sites often are above the new sites even when the fandom site becomes a pile of unmaintained, vandalized garbage. This suggests that vandalism actually helps fandom.
The best thing we can do is not visit the sites and don’t link to them, instead using and linking to their new sites.
Nice write-up, I appreciate it
An extension called Indie Wiki Buddy can also help with this by helping direct you to known alternatives to fandom for specific franchises or falling back to Breezewiki-based instances that rehost Fandom content without all of the Fandom bloat. It also provides this filtering and hinting to search results too, so you don’t have to change your workflow too much to use it.
For just about every single pokemon fan game I play, the fandom wiki pages have pretty much been utter garbage. Either they’re out of date, contain almost no useful info, or have a slew of other problems making it as painful as falling in a bunch of cacti. Same for most other ones I used to visit.
Will admit, Pokemon Empire having their own site for their fan game is still infinitely better than the fandom pages for it.
Does serebii.net or bulbapedia only cover the original franchise games? Just curious. Haven’t played a Pokémon game in a long time.
I think bulbapedia cover just about any official content as far as I’m aware, so long as it’s licensed or made by nintento directly. Anything from the games to the anime to the trading cards to things like obscure licensed Japanese arcade games based on the franchise.
Don’t know if serebii does all that or if it just focuses on the games since I don’t use it.
I only use it for WoWpedia, because it has a lot of information from years ago. I still remember when they added so many unnecessary interface elements and the website became slower. Luckily, I found https://userstyles.world/style/5722/clean-fandom-wiki, which made it usable again.
The wow wiki has recently moved to wiki gg and they ported everything over so definitely Check it out!
Thanks! Didn’t know they tried to leave fandom for a while. https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Warcraft_Wiki
Honestly, fuck Fandom. Do we have a Fediverse alternative?
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There’s Fossil which is a version control system with a wiki, so you can just straight up fork and mirror existing wikis.
Why would we need a fediverse alternative 😂 unless you want to go around editing wikis with your mastodon account, wikis are basically just static webpages. It’s called HTML 😂
Wikis like Fandom typically make it easy/easier to create and edit pages. Wiki editors are rare and you want to make it as easy for them to latch onto helping and volunteering as is possible.
Maybe a fediverse option isn’t needed (though the below comment’s point about having a central account would make it easier for a lot of users), but having a convenient and easy way to create a wiki for your favorite fandom, without using Fandom would go a long way toward breaking Fandom’s hold over the entertainment sections of the internet.
I, for one, would be totally cool having a single account to do everything online as long as it had really good security. 🤷🏻♂️
Believe it or not, Wikipedia actually does use a single global account for all of its wikis. That includes Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikimedia Commons, and almost every other site listed on their website. The only one you have to create a separate account for is their test wiki where they test new versions of MediaWiki (the software they develop for their wikis).
Fandom was founded by Jimmy wales, who its current CEO. He is the cofounder of Wikipedia, so that’s a bit ironic.
Jimmy Wales actually isn’t as directly involved in Wikipedia as he once was. These days, he only holds the chair emeritus and the founder’s seat on the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees.
His chair position changed to a chair emeritus in 2006, and the site implemented the unified login feature in May 2008, though they’d been discussing implementing the feature since 2005.
I learned about this plug in the other day. Indie Wiki Buddy. It’s not a fediverse alternative, but it’s the next best thing. It can redirect your Fandom results to their independent alternatives.
Whats the alternative?
Independent wikis for those media franchises that have them.
Does this mean self-hosting the wiki?
Because that increase the barrier of entry by tenfold as a lot of publishers/game studios do not host their own wikis.
Or use a wiki host that’s not affiliated with Fandom.
But they did buy out Gamepedia too…
Aside from self-hosting your own wiki, https://wiki.gg/ seems to be the popular option. Terraria’s official wiki is now https://terraria.wiki.gg/ and it’s great.
The main WoW wiki has moved to wiki.gg too :)
I’ve also used miraheze (https://miraheze.org)
Self-hosting using MediaWiki
Unless the game your playing made their own, or someone else decided to self host and actually fill it with content (and finding it can be a pain), there isn’t one.
Hoping someone knows a good fallout wiki, I hate using fandom, but it’s the only one I can find with good info.
for Minecraft, minecraft.wiki
for others i don’t know, some will have alternatives and others won’t…
It really just depends on the fandom. Three more I know of are Bulbapedia for Pokemon, The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages for the Elder Scrolls, and Wookiepedia for Star Wars. They are all very comprehensive and functional.
Edit: Forgot about the Super Mario Wiki too.
I wish I could, but I like browsing Logopedia which is hosting on Fandom and has announced no plans to leave the site. If they did, I’d completely abandon that place and block everything that has to do with them.
And no, it’s not easy to migrate a database of hundreds of thousands of logos to another wikifarm, especially if new stuff arrives all the time.
This is one of the main reasons I use Kagi. I have sites like fandom and fextralife blocked in my search results.
One of the things I miss about early internet years was all the independent fan sites and forums people had. Now, so much is just posted to these garbage platforms that control everything.
Yes!! Gotta love Kagi and the ability to tailor search results to be exactly what you want.
and recently the AI written garbage “gamer” websites have become a problem as well. You can tell instantly that some ai just collected and regurgitated a bunch of text that doesn’t even make sense.
Now I pretty much stick just to the fan created wikis. Stuff like bg3.wiki and uesp.net
I use Metager instead - it’s FOSS and also has an option to filter out choosen domains from the search results.
What’s wrong with fextralife? I’m ootl
They game SEO to flood search results with articles that are pure, useless placeholders which most of the time will never be written. Even when they’re more than a placeholder page, they’re often wrong outside of a few games because they’re just there to get clicks. Downvote bots were used against links to competing wikis, and while Fextralife denies it, they were conveniently spared.
There is more shady behavior out there around Fextra, but the most important thing for a user is there is almost always a better wiki that’s being suppressed in the search results. If you blacklist the site you’re a lot more likely to find something useful.
Oh wow. Is it still worth using on games like elden ring where they have a good amount of info on every page?
Still haven’t gotten around to playing Elden Ring so I don’t know if there are better alternatives.
Fextralife embeds their twitch stream into their site, artificially inflating their twitch viewer numbers, which in turn hurts smaller streamers since fextralife will be sorted first by viewer count.