The Apple event after was just insane. Jobs said about the previous announcement that Bungie is still making Halo for Mac. And Bungie and Microsoft reps came on and nervously said it is still being made.
It released in Xbox. And then PC. And then a long time later, a third party were hired to port it to Mac.
Apple announced a game without securing distribution rights first? Seems a bit shady on Bungie’s part for letting them, and negligent on Apple’s.
Also, if we want to paint the narrative that a potential future of Apple in gaming was stolen by Microsoft, wouldn’t that put Apple in the perfect position now to hit back? They’ve been toying with the idea of bringing gaming to macOS, but they seem to want someone else to do the heavy lifting. On Linux you have Proton, and on macOS we had Whisky, but the guy threw in the towel when he realised another company was making a commercial product out of it, he didn’t want to take away from the work they were doing. (To be fair, they had been at it longer.) But it seems like if Apple wants to be serious about gaming, they need to build something like Proton. Maybe they should buy Crossover and make it part of macOS. Let just any Mac user run games made for Windows. But I’m also not saying non-gamer Mac users should bear any part of the cost of gaming, but something gotta give somewhere.
Microsoft is screwing up by running people off of Windows when PC building costs are at record highs and the economy is so low, and running up the price of the Xbox due to a situation they had a hand in creating (the AI bubble). While Linux will be a better target for people with perfectly good computers who don’t want to build a whole new one to satisfy Windows 11’s requirements, anyone looking at the end of the life of their gaming PC should be looking at the M4 Mac mini at $500 and at least considering it. And Apple can help them make that decision by appealing to gamers and actually being serious about it. Because if fucking Apple of all companies starts taking gaming seriously, maybe Microsoft will again, too.
Apple is dipping their toes in the gaming water. Like couple of weeks ago they had a livestream, outside the WWDC schedule, about porting pc games to MacOs. They have even made plugins for Unity and put them on GitHub. So at least they take gaming a bit more seriously than they did under Steve Jobs.
Maybe they should buy Crossover and make it part of macOS
Absolutely no! Previous acquisition prove that they’ll stop any kind of work on Linux (that means backports on Wine, codeweawer is a massive sponsor) and for almost nothing.
And the end result will be like Rosetta, introduce a perfect interpreter but discontinue and remove it from the operating system a few years later because you want to push developers to make native builds and push consumers to throw their perfectly working PowerPC and buy an Intel Mac
Wait, of all the tech companies in the world, you specifically chose Apple for the “don’t want to throw perfectly good computers” line? The same Apple that every single year is routinely removing perfectly good computers from the newest MacOS compatibility list using same bullshit/fake requirements as Microsoft did with Windows 11?
“Don’t want to throw your 8 years old 7th gen Intel PC because Windows 10 is EOL? Buy a new Mac and throw it after 6-7 years when MacOS is EOL for your device!”
Yeah, but Apple has a history of doing that. They dropped support for Motorola chips in the PowerPC era. They dropped support for PowerPC chips in the Intel era. And they’ve started dropping Intel chips in the Apple Silicon era. They keep reinventing the Mac to stay current. Meanwhile, Windows supports stuff going way back regardless of it being updated to support the newest stuff. Except Microsoft decided to try a similar thing, but also kinda not really? I mean, you can run Windows 11 on 7th gen Intel (I was running it on a 4th gen Xeon), they just don’t want you to.
At least with Apple you know what you’re getting, and it’s a lot more secure and stable for it.
Besides, I wouldn’t expect someone with a perfectly good PC to throw it out and get a Mac. I’d suggest they run Linux instead. It’ll run better than Windows, too. But if your computer is dead, dying, or on its way there, I do suggest Mac as a perfectly good alternative.
No one’s really running computers for 20+ years, except the government. For whatever dumb ass reason.
Someone else said that Apple want everyone to use Metal on MacOS, and don’t properly support OpenGL. Which seems like a bigger problem than absence of some variants of Wine.
It’s not they don’t properly support opengl, is that they intentionally chose to stop any kind of development on opengl 8 years ago, so devs are forced to choose between using an ancient version of opengl or make a native “metal” build.
Their idea is that once devs spent thousands of hours on their “metal” engine, then they will focus exclusively or primarily on apple devices
Because if fucking Apple of all companies starts taking gaming seriously, maybe Microsoft will again, too.
You can’t expect large megacorps to “do the right thing”, no matter how you define that. Linux is the only path towards open-source software and promotion.
Hard to imagine but back in the day it wasn’t up to your operating system to distribute software. They were just a platform and you had open choice to obtain software.
Apple showcasing what their hardware and software was capable of was normal. I don’t think this was negligent but maybe naive seeing how things are run now. It was much better and we got better products and competition.
Budgie was an apple developer before with Marathon which was exclusive not because of any distribution rights but just preference for the platform.
There have been exclusives for a long time, even before Halo. Mostly console, because Windows hasn’t really faced competition. Macs could never decide on a chipset. First it was Motorola, then PowerPC, then Intel, and now Apple Silicon. It’s a moving target. Apple Silicon may not be forever either. If Apple wants to get into gaming, I can see them working with AMD, but not soon.
Apple can’t even be arsed to support games that were released on their own platform like 5 years ago. Why would they suddenly start bothering to support games released for other platforms?
To be fair they did move to a completely different CPU architecture and ARM is a hit or miss in gaming. Some games are fine, but then there are ones like Minecraft that ran better on my 10 year old Intel than on a top of the line M processor
Is moving to ARM architecture anti-user? They easily accomplished the (correct me if I’m wrong) best energy efficiency between all available laptops in the market. Granted, it was never marketed for gaming.
Apple had a handshake deal with Bungie, until Microsoft bought Bungie and made the Mac exclusive an Xbox exclusive.
It came full circle when Halo CE SE was released as a Mac exclusive on Mac & PC. And it is arguably the best version of the original game on any platform (higher resolution textures without a complete remake, exclusive multiplayer weapons, etc.).
It’s a popular misconception that Halo was intended to be a Mac exclusive when it was revealed. It was going to be released on Mac and PC.
You may know that, but a lot of people think that it was revealed at Macworld because it was exclusive. But it was just a headliner in a statement of “hey, we can play games too!” In fact the literal game they were running on stage was actually running backstage on a PC.
Can you elaborate on CE SE? Is this different from the 2003 Mac port? As far as I’m aware, the port to Mac had lower resolution textures on top of certain rendering issues, poorer AI behaviour etc.
Bungie made games for Mac originally. The 2003 Mac version isn’t a port, It’s the original game. The PC and Xbox versions are the port. That’s why it feels like it’s behind those. Because it literally did have less development time despite coming out later.
They released another Halo for Mac a few years later that I think is the one the other commenter is talking about. It came out around the time of the MacBook Air and as a result is the only game I know of that has an official no-cd patch.
I was not aware of any of those problems. And I played the Mac version. When I had an Xbox, I spent a lot of time looking at textures up close cause the quality was amazing to me. Once I played it on the Mac I instantly noticed how much cleaner and sharper everything was.
It was released during the PowerPC era, and the internet says it works on Intel Mac through Rosetta emulation. That might result in the graphical issues you mentioned. Having to run through Rosetta means Microsoft (or Macport) never issued a patch for native Intel compatibility.
I was wrong about it being Mac exclusive. I though the Windows PC version was a straight port from Xbox, but it’s the same “enhanced” version of the game that Macs got.
If I recall right, the only exlusive weapon was the Flamethrower, but they also added the missile Warthog. Might be forgetting some other weapons though, as I never had the Xbox version.
I had some fun when I was younger modding the demo. The only content stripped out of it were the levels, so there were all these custom versions of the Blood Gulch map floating around with Ghosts and Scorpion tanks, etc.
I liked messing with weapon properties. Had my own temu/wish.com “cursed halo at home” long before it was a real thing.
Sniper rifle fired plasma grenades, and you could do fun stuff like stacking two so the first would throw the second into the air and the trail and explosion made it like a flare.
Shotgun fired a spread of frag grenades instead of bullets, and pushed you backwards a bit.
Pistol was more accurate, slightly faster, much less damage, and pushed whoever got hit back a ton. You could easily juggle someone up into the skybox with it. It pushed vehicles too.
Rocket launcher fired a massive ball of rockets that would lag everything.
Flamethrower fired rockets instead of flames, with a much higher ammo pool, but no other changes. So rocket sprinkler.
Fully charged plasma pistol fired a Scorpion Tank shot. I think the non charged ones homed in to a stupid extent.
Chaingun Warthog fired needler rounds with an increased lifetime.
Assault rifle worked as area denial, setting an area in an orb shape around you on fire.
The plasma cannon thing would spawn a Scorpion tank over your head, crushing you.
I think I turned the needler into a shotgun blast thing, but it still fired needles.
I think I changed the elites’ plasma smg thing to start firing slowly but “rev up” to stupid fast speeds, and then the cooldown hurt your shields?
There was something that would call down a larger version of the plasma cannon projectile from the sky, with a larger explosion radius and a stupid big/strong pushback effect.
Vehicle crashes called the same kind of system as a projectile hitting, so you were effectively “shot” with a vehicle impact “bullet” as a rider if you crashed too hard. Congrats that’s now a frag grenade explosion. That one was shamelessly stolen from a tutorial.
macOS we had Whisky, but the guy threw in the towel when he realised another company was making a commercial product out of it, he didn’t want to take away from the work they were doing.
I misunderstood what happened with whiskey, I thought he was making a free version of a paid product.
No, he wasn’t making a free version of Crossover, but it did the same thing as Crossover. They both use free software made by WINE. The Whisky dev was not stealing from Crossover. However, Crossover gives some of its proceeds to the WINE community, so the Whisky developer felt that users using Whisky were indirectly cheating the WINE community by getting a free ride. Note that Proton and WINE are free. Crossover is the outlier being paid, but Crossover also gives back.
There are no assholes in this situation whatsoever. Not the Whisky dev for giving us a free alternative and not the Whisky users not paying for Crossover. Not even Crossover since they contribute to WINE. If there are any assholes, it’s developers who make games for Switch but not Mac (since they’re both ARM64 platforms; obviously not counting first-party Nintendo developers), people who pirated Crossover, and developers not developing at all for ARM64. But that’s a stretch and I’m not after any of those people, I’m just saying, if someone has to be an asshole, that’s where I’d look, not at Whisky/its dev/its users, and not at Crossover/its dev/its users.
Infinity was such a joke. They told everyone it was going to have a 10 year support plan despite the gaming coming out unfinished. Master Chief collection is great.
Good on ya for sticking with it that long. I stopped at 4. Tried 5 but couldn’t get through it and I only had it bc it came with the wife’s Xbox.
Edit: just to add, I’m not even sure what it is since I like some of the things they’ve tried. Like, I love the multiplayer bots. They’re just fun to mess around.
How is this a nightmare vision? Proprietary bullshit, which is what consoles are, is what Apple does better than the others. M series chips seem ideal in terms of hardware, and a consolized Mac mini would be pretty dope.
M chips are super expensive. They’re optimized for low clockspeed/idle efficiency and pay through the nose for cutting edge processes, whereas most gaming hardware is optimized for pure speed/$, with the smallest die area and cheapest memory possible, at the expense of power efficiency.
And honestly the CPU/GPU divide over traces is more economical. “Unified memory” programming isn’t strictly needed for games at the moment.
And, practically, Apple demands very high margins. I just can’t see them pricing a console aggressively.
The base Mac Mini is not super powerful. Physically, the silicon comparable to AMD Strix Point, which you’d find in any AMD laptop.
I am not trying to rag on Apple here: their stuff is fine. It’s ridiculously power efficient. It’d be beyond excellent for a handheld like the Steam Deck, or a VR headset.
…But a plug in gaming console? That’s more ‘M4 Pro’ silicon. And what they charge for that speaks for itself.
It is “cheap” because they are hoping that someone is stupid enough to pay the upgrades like $200 for 256gb of extra SSD. Or that it later leads to purchasing more Apple devices.
Charging $200 for having 256gb of extra SSD space on a $700 computer (cost for them: $2) is textbook definition of scam.
The price is actually good for the Mac mini but clearly they sat on a table for hours discussing how they can fuck the end user like “and for the SSD, let’s make a board that LOOKS LIKE a standard M.2 drive, has almost the same dimensions and connector, BUT we don’t include a controller on it, so it’s not electrically compatibile with existing drives and we can charge a 10000x markup on it”. And all the marketing managers in the room started clapping
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The Apple event after was just insane. Jobs said about the previous announcement that Bungie is still making Halo for Mac. And Bungie and Microsoft reps came on and nervously said it is still being made.
It released in Xbox. And then PC. And then a long time later, a third party were hired to port it to Mac.
Apple announced a game without securing distribution rights first? Seems a bit shady on Bungie’s part for letting them, and negligent on Apple’s.
Also, if we want to paint the narrative that a potential future of Apple in gaming was stolen by Microsoft, wouldn’t that put Apple in the perfect position now to hit back? They’ve been toying with the idea of bringing gaming to macOS, but they seem to want someone else to do the heavy lifting. On Linux you have Proton, and on macOS we had Whisky, but the guy threw in the towel when he realised another company was making a commercial product out of it, he didn’t want to take away from the work they were doing. (To be fair, they had been at it longer.) But it seems like if Apple wants to be serious about gaming, they need to build something like Proton. Maybe they should buy Crossover and make it part of macOS. Let just any Mac user run games made for Windows. But I’m also not saying non-gamer Mac users should bear any part of the cost of gaming, but something gotta give somewhere.
Microsoft is screwing up by running people off of Windows when PC building costs are at record highs and the economy is so low, and running up the price of the Xbox due to a situation they had a hand in creating (the AI bubble). While Linux will be a better target for people with perfectly good computers who don’t want to build a whole new one to satisfy Windows 11’s requirements, anyone looking at the end of the life of their gaming PC should be looking at the M4 Mac mini at $500 and at least considering it. And Apple can help them make that decision by appealing to gamers and actually being serious about it. Because if fucking Apple of all companies starts taking gaming seriously, maybe Microsoft will again, too.
Apple is dipping their toes in the gaming water. Like couple of weeks ago they had a livestream, outside the WWDC schedule, about porting pc games to MacOs. They have even made plugins for Unity and put them on GitHub. So at least they take gaming a bit more seriously than they did under Steve Jobs.
Absolutely no! Previous acquisition prove that they’ll stop any kind of work on Linux (that means backports on Wine, codeweawer is a massive sponsor) and for almost nothing.
And the end result will be like Rosetta, introduce a perfect interpreter but discontinue and remove it from the operating system a few years later because you want to push developers to make native builds and push consumers to throw their perfectly working PowerPC and buy an Intel Mac
Some things have survived, like CUPS…but yeah, their track record isn’t great.
Wait, of all the tech companies in the world, you specifically chose Apple for the “don’t want to throw perfectly good computers” line? The same Apple that every single year is routinely removing perfectly good computers from the newest MacOS compatibility list using same bullshit/fake requirements as Microsoft did with Windows 11?
“Don’t want to throw your 8 years old 7th gen Intel PC because Windows 10 is EOL? Buy a new Mac and throw it after 6-7 years when MacOS is EOL for your device!”
Yeah, but Apple has a history of doing that. They dropped support for Motorola chips in the PowerPC era. They dropped support for PowerPC chips in the Intel era. And they’ve started dropping Intel chips in the Apple Silicon era. They keep reinventing the Mac to stay current. Meanwhile, Windows supports stuff going way back regardless of it being updated to support the newest stuff. Except Microsoft decided to try a similar thing, but also kinda not really? I mean, you can run Windows 11 on 7th gen Intel (I was running it on a 4th gen Xeon), they just don’t want you to.
At least with Apple you know what you’re getting, and it’s a lot more secure and stable for it.
Besides, I wouldn’t expect someone with a perfectly good PC to throw it out and get a Mac. I’d suggest they run Linux instead. It’ll run better than Windows, too. But if your computer is dead, dying, or on its way there, I do suggest Mac as a perfectly good alternative.
No one’s really running computers for 20+ years, except the government. For whatever dumb ass reason.
Someone else said that Apple want everyone to use Metal on MacOS, and don’t properly support OpenGL. Which seems like a bigger problem than absence of some variants of Wine.
It’s not they don’t properly support opengl, is that they intentionally chose to stop any kind of development on opengl 8 years ago, so devs are forced to choose between using an ancient version of opengl or make a native “metal” build.
Their idea is that once devs spent thousands of hours on their “metal” engine, then they will focus exclusively or primarily on apple devices
I don’t quite understand what ‘stop development’ means here. Do you mean developing support for OpenGL in the GPU drivers?
You can’t expect large megacorps to “do the right thing”, no matter how you define that. Linux is the only path towards open-source software and promotion.
Hard to imagine but back in the day it wasn’t up to your operating system to distribute software. They were just a platform and you had open choice to obtain software.
Apple showcasing what their hardware and software was capable of was normal. I don’t think this was negligent but maybe naive seeing how things are run now. It was much better and we got better products and competition.
Budgie was an apple developer before with Marathon which was exclusive not because of any distribution rights but just preference for the platform.
Alas money talks.
There have been exclusives for a long time, even before Halo. Mostly console, because Windows hasn’t really faced competition. Macs could never decide on a chipset. First it was Motorola, then PowerPC, then Intel, and now Apple Silicon. It’s a moving target. Apple Silicon may not be forever either. If Apple wants to get into gaming, I can see them working with AMD, but not soon.
Bungie had always been a Mac first, PC/console later game dev up to that point.
Apple can’t even be arsed to support games that were released on their own platform like 5 years ago. Why would they suddenly start bothering to support games released for other platforms?
To be fair they did move to a completely different CPU architecture and ARM is a hit or miss in gaming. Some games are fine, but then there are ones like Minecraft that ran better on my 10 year old Intel than on a top of the line M processor
I don’t think Apple doing typical hostile anti-user Apple shit is a “to be fair” moment.
Is moving to ARM architecture anti-user? They easily accomplished the (correct me if I’m wrong) best energy efficiency between all available laptops in the market. Granted, it was never marketed for gaming.
Yes it’s anti-user because
1: they seem to have broken compatibility with a lot of existing software
2: they just use the efficiency improvements to make shit thinner.
Okay, so
Rosetta 2 largely fixed that, for whereever it was feasible to fix. It came out as soon as ARM Macbooks did.
They actually made their shit thicker. The M1 Pro/Max MBP is thicker than the 2016+ Intel ones were.
I had an M1 Air, the battery lasted like 20 hours. Most I’ve gotten off any non-Apple laptop has been 6-7.
Apple had a handshake deal with Bungie, until Microsoft bought Bungie and made the Mac exclusive an Xbox exclusive.
It came full circle when Halo CE SE was released
as a Mac exclusiveon Mac & PC. And it is arguably the best version of the original game on any platform (higher resolution textures without a complete remake, exclusive multiplayer weapons, etc.).It’s a popular misconception that Halo was intended to be a Mac exclusive when it was revealed. It was going to be released on Mac and PC.
You may know that, but a lot of people think that it was revealed at Macworld because it was exclusive. But it was just a headliner in a statement of “hey, we can play games too!” In fact the literal game they were running on stage was actually running backstage on a PC.
Can you elaborate on CE SE? Is this different from the 2003 Mac port? As far as I’m aware, the port to Mac had lower resolution textures on top of certain rendering issues, poorer AI behaviour etc.
Bungie made games for Mac originally. The 2003 Mac version isn’t a port, It’s the original game. The PC and Xbox versions are the port. That’s why it feels like it’s behind those. Because it literally did have less development time despite coming out later.
They released another Halo for Mac a few years later that I think is the one the other commenter is talking about. It came out around the time of the MacBook Air and as a result is the only game I know of that has an official no-cd patch.
I was not aware of any of those problems. And I played the Mac version. When I had an Xbox, I spent a lot of time looking at textures up close cause the quality was amazing to me. Once I played it on the Mac I instantly noticed how much cleaner and sharper everything was.
It was released during the PowerPC era, and the internet says it works on Intel Mac through Rosetta emulation. That might result in the graphical issues you mentioned. Having to run through Rosetta means Microsoft (or Macport) never issued a patch for native Intel compatibility.
I was wrong about it being Mac exclusive. I though the Windows PC version was a straight port from Xbox, but it’s the same “enhanced” version of the game that Macs got.
If I recall right, the only exlusive weapon was the Flamethrower, but they also added the missile Warthog. Might be forgetting some other weapons though, as I never had the Xbox version.
I had some fun when I was younger modding the demo. The only content stripped out of it were the levels, so there were all these custom versions of the Blood Gulch map floating around with Ghosts and Scorpion tanks, etc.
I liked messing with weapon properties. Had my own temu/wish.com “cursed halo at home” long before it was a real thing.
That’s what I remember at least.
I misunderstood what happened with whiskey, I thought he was making a free version of a paid product.
No, he wasn’t making a free version of Crossover, but it did the same thing as Crossover. They both use free software made by WINE. The Whisky dev was not stealing from Crossover. However, Crossover gives some of its proceeds to the WINE community, so the Whisky developer felt that users using Whisky were indirectly cheating the WINE community by getting a free ride. Note that Proton and WINE are free. Crossover is the outlier being paid, but Crossover also gives back.
There are no assholes in this situation whatsoever. Not the Whisky dev for giving us a free alternative and not the Whisky users not paying for Crossover. Not even Crossover since they contribute to WINE. If there are any assholes, it’s developers who make games for Switch but not Mac (since they’re both ARM64 platforms; obviously not counting first-party Nintendo developers), people who pirated Crossover, and developers not developing at all for ARM64. But that’s a stretch and I’m not after any of those people, I’m just saying, if someone has to be an asshole, that’s where I’d look, not at Whisky/its dev/its users, and not at Crossover/its dev/its users.
Valve pays Codeweavers (developers of Wine and Crossover directly), so it’s not like using Proton takes money away from them.
Thank you for the very detailed explanation. That really clears it up for me.
Mostly I only play games on my Mac that are available for Mac, with one or two exceptions. I used whiskey for one of them.
And Infinite is likely the end, at least for me…
Infinity was such a joke. They told everyone it was going to have a 10 year support plan despite the gaming coming out unfinished. Master Chief collection is great.
I have only played 1, 3, and Infinite. My halo experience has been great and I never really felt the burnout or lack of innovation.
If you’re only interested in multiplayer then those are solid options. If you like campaign then you should definitely check out 2, ODST, and Reach.
Good on ya for sticking with it that long. I stopped at 4. Tried 5 but couldn’t get through it and I only had it bc it came with the wife’s Xbox.
Edit: just to add, I’m not even sure what it is since I like some of the things they’ve tried. Like, I love the multiplayer bots. They’re just fun to mess around.
Having a nightmare vision of the future where Apple releases it’s own gaming console
The Pippin 2.
How is this a nightmare vision? Proprietary bullshit, which is what consoles are, is what Apple does better than the others. M series chips seem ideal in terms of hardware, and a consolized Mac mini would be pretty dope.
It doesn’t even exist and I’m already getting insufferably smug Apple heads telling me it’s the best one.
deleted by creator
M chips are super expensive. They’re optimized for low clockspeed/idle efficiency and pay through the nose for cutting edge processes, whereas most gaming hardware is optimized for pure speed/$, with the smallest die area and cheapest memory possible, at the expense of power efficiency.
And honestly the CPU/GPU divide over traces is more economical. “Unified memory” programming isn’t strictly needed for games at the moment.
And, practically, Apple demands very high margins. I just can’t see them pricing a console aggressively.
Good points. Mac mini is pretty cheap though, cheaper than most consoles.
The base Mac Mini is not super powerful. Physically, the silicon comparable to AMD Strix Point, which you’d find in any AMD laptop.
I am not trying to rag on Apple here: their stuff is fine. It’s ridiculously power efficient. It’d be beyond excellent for a handheld like the Steam Deck, or a VR headset.
…But a plug in gaming console? That’s more ‘M4 Pro’ silicon. And what they charge for that speaks for itself.
It is “cheap” because they are hoping that someone is stupid enough to pay the upgrades like $200 for 256gb of extra SSD. Or that it later leads to purchasing more Apple devices.
It’s a gateway drug
I love this Apple hater threads. You people are so unhinged about this stuff. It’s great!
Charging $200 for having 256gb of extra SSD space on a $700 computer (cost for them: $2) is textbook definition of scam.
The price is actually good for the Mac mini but clearly they sat on a table for hours discussing how they can fuck the end user like “and for the SSD, let’s make a board that LOOKS LIKE a standard M.2 drive, has almost the same dimensions and connector, BUT we don’t include a controller on it, so it’s not electrically compatibile with existing drives and we can charge a 10000x markup on it”. And all the marketing managers in the room started clapping
It’s the part where you have to resort to asserting that it works because people are stupid, that is hilarious. It’s so wonderfully reductionist.