Strategic lawsuits against public participation (also known as SLAPP suits or intimidation lawsuits), or strategic litigation against public participation, are lawsuits intended to censor, intimidate, and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or opposition
There are many, many variants. The idea is the smaller player can’t really afford to fight in court, so even if the larger actor has shaky legal claims they will still win.
To be fair, (I hate Nintendo because of their crusade on open source software), but to be fair,
ps2 had issues on some Ps1 games, the list is short though, and the last few revisions of ps2 even software emulated Ps1 (don’t know the compatibility difference with hardware backwards compatibility)
Ps3 had issues with even more ps2 games, and only the first few revisions had hardware backwards compatibility, the ps2 emulation on ps3 without hardware compatibility is a mess
PS5 has issues with some ps4 games, including but not limited to psvr games, and I think I saw an official in incompatibility list by sony
Wii backwards compatibility i dont know about any issues except with games that use hardware accessories, maybe someone knows more? Later revisions dropped backward compatibility, but the hardware is still present, and homebrew will help you.
As for switch 2 to switch 1 backwards compatibility speculation, here is a educated guess. The asterisk is referring to lobo games and some other games with accessories. Why this speculative conclusion? Because of the way the hardware inside it works.
The arm cpu can be optionally designed to be completely backwards compatible. But is it? (more on that soon). The gpu part of the SOC, is most certainly not 100% binary compatible, because of what we already know about the architecture changes between these gpu generations. This isn’t limited to arm and nvidia gpus, ps5 also has these issues with x86 jaguar to ryzen, and Radeon generations.
So what about your experience with pc gpus, and cpus, and ps5 to ps4 compatibility etc? Well, emulation, the instructions, that are not compatible are emulated in software, this is common place, and in practice it works quite well. The main issue comes down to timing. Some things take different amount of time to do, like an instruction can take fewer cycles. Or if it’s emulated it can take more cycles. Emulation does work well, even if it often can have timing issues. Some times instructions from a future generation can possibly be emulated on your pc cpu. I can remember my friends computer using an installed windows driver, to emulate a future version of the SSE instruction set, I think it was SSE 2 or 2.1, it worked well enough to play VR games (oculus rift dev kit 1 days).
Another issue is that when cpu makers deprecate instructions some times, but they do this in a quite annoying way, they can add a wait, so an instruction takes much longer to run than previous cpus.
I’m not confident enough to talk in this detail about GPUs, because as we all experience, the high level compatibility api like directX or vulkan do all this all the time for us, and I don’t know graphics programming. But I do know this is more of an issue on consoles talking more directly to the hardware. But lots of switch games use vulkan so, those should TM work fine… But some games can also be programmed (intentionally like rogue squadron on GameCube, or unintentionally) to need an unintended or undocumented feature of the vulkan implementation on the switch, and those may or may not work on switch 2
Nvidia also is responsible for the Cpu design, directly or indirectly. I don’t know how much they care about being as backwards compatible with the cpu instructions as possible though. Probsbly if Nintendo has anything to say about it, they can be 99.999% compatible, with only some timing issues, which may or may not affect games.
So what is the conclusions? Of course this is speculation, and users have to test games, it will take years to know the full extent, but I think we will see near 100% compatibility for games that don’t need hardware accessories that are not compatible. If we exclude shovelware (low effort crap that somehow got into the eshop) maybe a couple to a handful of games will have big enough issues that they can’t be played. Maybe more games will have minor graphics issues, or things that look fine, but just slightly different to switch1
The Switch 2 has a new hardware size and some software (like Labo and Ring Fit) has a physical component that is sized to the original Switch/Joy-Con. It could be referring to that.
Yeha but the pessimist in me thinks of box’s backwards compatibility where only the games they curated would work. Still can’t play eternal sonata anymore.
Just as a heads up, Eternal Sonata was released on the PS3 and Xbox360. Both RCPS3 and Xenia can play Eternal Sonata even on a steamdeck. If they wont let you play it legitimately, and youve bought a copy for your old systems… thats more than enough justification to emulate in my books.
Man I’m so sorry to hear that. For me it was Lucasarts’ Gladius and they finally did add that one somewhat recently. It’s the only game I was keeping my original Xbox for.
I imagine the steam deck will be capable of emulating switch 2 titles nearly immediately, so there’s little reason to buy it. They really need to make their hardware comparable to their software (minus the notoriously awful Japan™ netcode)
Good luck getting someone to continue emulation development. The only potential chance for development is exclusively on the under web, and the dev has said that “this was supposed to be a hobby” meaning they have an out if they don’t want to continue
Emulating Switch 2 games on the Steam Deck would be a challenge. Even though it’s on an outdated process node, I think it’s fair to say it’s in the same class of hardware as a Steam Deck (which is 3 years old at this point).
Hardware aside, to my knowledge no one is really actively developing any of the Switch emulators due to the prior legal action that was taken.
Now, eventually it’s possible someone might do it for the Switch 2, but I wouldn’t expect anything quick as whomever does so will very likely incur the mighty wrath of Nintendo’s legal team.
That’s a rumor. All we know is that they talked with the dev behind closed doors and he deleted everything related to Ryujinx afterwards. Sure, they could have paid him but it’s just as likely that they just threatened him. Let’s not forget how Nintendo made its money.
Yes, this wasn’t an admission because it’s a well-known fact that is not inconsistent with Nintendo’s earlier actions. The headline is deceptive and people don’t read the article. The article itself contains no new information and it is only worth reading for someone who has been deceived by the headline and needs to be set straight by the same people who wrote the deceptive headline. It’s click bait that shouldn’t exist.
Nintendo used to have a page on emulation on their website incorrectly claiming that it was always illegal and all emulators had solely been created to enable piracy. This new claim is not compatible with their previous action of having that page.
I was a life long Nintendo fan boy. I have every system excluding the virtual boy cuz of the headaches, and the Wii u because I was under employed when it released. I stopped buying Nintendo after Gary Bowser, their software is janky, and bad for 2000’s level of web portal. I had already complained to Nintendo as a long term investor, and instead of innovating their software and hardware, they litigate away anything that might be considered competition and sue into poverty anyone that alters the devices.
I never altered my switch, but I stand on the side of the hackers because Nintendo desperately needed to create a quality software core for their switch family. They want their software to be an extremely basic game launcher, and in modern software terms, that’s just incompetent.
I stopped buying Nintendo because Nintendo stopped innovating their software, started litigating their profits, and relied solely on old worn out IP instead of creating something new and fresh.
You know how many new games are gonna launch on switch 2? Less than 5. Know what one of the first 10 games is gonna be? Mario. Want another? Probably a racing game that’s another rehash but has something blandly new and shiny, like space ship racing with gerbils(instead of diddy Kong racing, or jet ski racing etc).
Nintendo has no new IP ideas, and while I was mostly OK suffering through the tired old crap to get to whatever gameplay innovation they made, they seem to have abandoned the gameplay innovation entirely, and are just suing people to force them to play their games the way they want, even if they already received money for the game and system. Whatever they might have in store for the switch 2, so long as Gary Bowser is living in debt to Nintendo, I will never purchase another Nintendo product new, ever again, and I will only purchase used if they have an absolute banger of a game, but I’m only buying that used as well. No profit to Nintendo. I can buy off eBay.
With the Switch 2 announcement, it’s kind of clear that they aren’t even trying to be a tech company anymore. While not every last one of their consoles released was a true innovation, it did feel like something that was built into part of their brand. Now we just have the Switch 2 which is mostly what you’d expect with some decent QoL upgrades.
Nintendo is pursuing the walled garden approach. You’re barely even buying a console anymore, a lot of this hardware has more or less converged. What you’re buying is access to the cultivated ecosystem. Like everything else these days, they entice you in with the big, recognizable brands and hope there’s enough else to keep you there. Emulators straight pierce that veil and it’s why they went so hard on them.
I’m not criticizing (too heavily) the people that choose to hold on to the franchises they love, but once you step outside and choose alternatives, there’s very little to bring you back. Pokemon lost me a few gens ago, honestly not the biggest Zelda fan, and Mario alone won’t do it for me. Metroid and Starfox are scattershot … Personally I’ll stick with the Steam Deck and wait for Switch 2 emulation to roll around. And if it doesn’t, there are just so many other games to play these days.
I don’t think Nintendo ever tried to be a tech company. They have always been a game company first and foremost. If they were ever a kind of tech company, the closest analogy would be Apple, another company that focused on consumer electronics.
What walled garden are you talking about? Exclusive games? Literally every console ever made has those.
Nintendo bad for making QoL console releases? Again, Nintendo is not the only company to do that. PS4/PS5 Pro, the recent Xboxes, etc
With emulators, they’re only trying to protect their current hardware. They’ve put basically zero effort into shutting down emulators for consoles they don’t sell anymore. Yeah, I’m with everyone else in wishing they didn’t shut down the switch emulators but it’s somewhat understandable that they’re trying to protect their revenue from hardware sales
Nintendo bad for making QoL console releases? Again, Nintendo is not the only company to do that. PS4/PS5 Pro, the recent Xboxes, etc
Nintendo has a history of doing something different each hardware generation: Snes had the 4 button + shoulder buttons controller. N64 controller was designed for someone with 3 hands, DS had 2 screens, 3DS had 3d without glasses, Wii had motion controls, Wii U the tablet controller, Switch is a console and portable… Every system had something that made it unique. What’s unique about the Switch 2?
Nintendo is not able to compete with other consoles on power, it’s the unique hardware that gives a reason to own it over something else.
They’ve put basically zero effort into shutting down emulators for consoles they don’t sell anymore.
Technically correct. They may not be shutting down emulators, but if they hear a whisper of a ROM for Mappy Land on the NES they have their lawyers on speed dial.
( Me typing that sentence means someone from Nintendo is now watching this thread to see if anyone links to a ROM.)
. You’re barely even buying a console anymore, a lot of this hardware has more or less converged. What you’re buying is access to the cultivated ecosystem.
Bingo. In an age where most people’s phones have better hardware than the Switch, it’s all about access to the walled garden instead of hardware.
Not that I disagree with your point about walled gardens, but “better” hardware for a handheld gaming machine needs to have a decent balance between performance and battery life. Longest plane or train journey that I’m likely to take is about five hours, and I’d need to rate any gaming hardware on the ability to run for that length of time. On that basis, the Switch is pretty much optimal. My phone has a higher resolution and can probably push more frames, but it would run hot for about forty-five minutes maximum. Plus, I’d then not be able to make calls or listen to tunes at my destination.
Steam deck would probably be a better choice, though. Fuck Nintendo.
I think Nintendo first party games are great. And I certainly don’t think they’re losing money… the Switch has the most global sales of any current console by a lot. In fact, the PS2 is the only non-Nintendo console to have sold more.
Strange that they targeted Palworld but not any of the other monster collector games that came out in the last 10 yesrs that weren’t nearly as successful.
They don’t need the money, but them wanting other developers money is what makes them do these petty lawsuits. And if they really wanted the money then they could have just made the pokemon game that Palworld ended up filling the niche for.
But they’re lazy and greedy instead of a fun games company so they choose to hire lawyers to suppress real competitors
In fact, ever since the PS4 I’ve been strictly a PC gamer.
Seeing how Microsoft was able to lower everyone’s standards by charging for online really puts things into perspective for me.
It’s great because now I don’t have to buy hardware or software. Looking forward to emulating switch 2 games before they’re even released like ToTK, lol.
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Guys we got em
we know emulation is legal, but we’re still going to legally have a legal reason to take y’all emulators to court angry face
See also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation
There are many, many variants. The idea is the smaller player can’t really afford to fight in court, so even if the larger actor has shaky legal claims they will still win.
Bypassing copy protection has always been the number one reason, it was never emulation per se.
What bugs me is i thought it was cause of the switch 2 pending, but turns out the switch 2 won’t be fully backwards compatible
Our new console is backwards compatible*
* It isn’t
To be fair, (I hate Nintendo because of their crusade on open source software), but to be fair,
ps2 had issues on some Ps1 games, the list is short though, and the last few revisions of ps2 even software emulated Ps1 (don’t know the compatibility difference with hardware backwards compatibility)
Ps3 had issues with even more ps2 games, and only the first few revisions had hardware backwards compatibility, the ps2 emulation on ps3 without hardware compatibility is a mess
PS5 has issues with some ps4 games, including but not limited to psvr games, and I think I saw an official in incompatibility list by sony
Wii backwards compatibility i dont know about any issues except with games that use hardware accessories, maybe someone knows more? Later revisions dropped backward compatibility, but the hardware is still present, and homebrew will help you.
As for switch 2 to switch 1 backwards compatibility speculation, here is a educated guess. The asterisk is referring to lobo games and some other games with accessories. Why this speculative conclusion? Because of the way the hardware inside it works.
The arm cpu can be optionally designed to be completely backwards compatible. But is it? (more on that soon). The gpu part of the SOC, is most certainly not 100% binary compatible, because of what we already know about the architecture changes between these gpu generations. This isn’t limited to arm and nvidia gpus, ps5 also has these issues with x86 jaguar to ryzen, and Radeon generations.
So what about your experience with pc gpus, and cpus, and ps5 to ps4 compatibility etc? Well, emulation, the instructions, that are not compatible are emulated in software, this is common place, and in practice it works quite well. The main issue comes down to timing. Some things take different amount of time to do, like an instruction can take fewer cycles. Or if it’s emulated it can take more cycles. Emulation does work well, even if it often can have timing issues. Some times instructions from a future generation can possibly be emulated on your pc cpu. I can remember my friends computer using an installed windows driver, to emulate a future version of the SSE instruction set, I think it was SSE 2 or 2.1, it worked well enough to play VR games (oculus rift dev kit 1 days).
Another issue is that when cpu makers deprecate instructions some times, but they do this in a quite annoying way, they can add a wait, so an instruction takes much longer to run than previous cpus.
I’m not confident enough to talk in this detail about GPUs, because as we all experience, the high level compatibility api like directX or vulkan do all this all the time for us, and I don’t know graphics programming. But I do know this is more of an issue on consoles talking more directly to the hardware. But lots of switch games use vulkan so, those should TM work fine… But some games can also be programmed (intentionally like rogue squadron on GameCube, or unintentionally) to need an unintended or undocumented feature of the vulkan implementation on the switch, and those may or may not work on switch 2
Nvidia also is responsible for the Cpu design, directly or indirectly. I don’t know how much they care about being as backwards compatible with the cpu instructions as possible though. Probsbly if Nintendo has anything to say about it, they can be 99.999% compatible, with only some timing issues, which may or may not affect games.
So what is the conclusions? Of course this is speculation, and users have to test games, it will take years to know the full extent, but I think we will see near 100% compatibility for games that don’t need hardware accessories that are not compatible. If we exclude shovelware (low effort crap that somehow got into the eshop) maybe a couple to a handful of games will have big enough issues that they can’t be played. Maybe more games will have minor graphics issues, or things that look fine, but just slightly different to switch1
The Switch 2 has a new hardware size and some software (like Labo and Ring Fit) has a physical component that is sized to the original Switch/Joy-Con. It could be referring to that.
Yeha but the pessimist in me thinks of box’s backwards compatibility where only the games they curated would work. Still can’t play eternal sonata anymore.
Just as a heads up, Eternal Sonata was released on the PS3 and Xbox360. Both RCPS3 and Xenia can play Eternal Sonata even on a steamdeck. If they wont let you play it legitimately, and youve bought a copy for your old systems… thats more than enough justification to emulate in my books.
I couldn’t get the xbox version to run emulated. It was all black, none of the graphics loaded. But i did get the ps3 version working.
Hey that’s awesome. I’ve been playing drakengard 3, I never finished eternal sonata, so I think I’ll go back and do that.
That would surprise me. It just doesn’t sound like their flavour of bullshit.
It 100% sounds like their flavor of bullshit.
Remember the “emulation console” they released?
Pretty sure you can still play Eternal Sonata on the last 3 generations of Xbox.
Nah it was never added to backwards compatibility on the xbone or series X. I tried so many times with hope in my eyes to put the disc in and nada.
Man I’m so sorry to hear that. For me it was Lucasarts’ Gladius and they finally did add that one somewhat recently. It’s the only game I was keeping my original Xbox for.
Needless to say I will not be buying a Switch 2 today.
Yeah you’ll have to wait until at least march
I imagine the steam deck will be capable of emulating switch 2 titles nearly immediately, so there’s little reason to buy it. They really need to make their hardware comparable to their software (minus the notoriously awful Japan™ netcode)
Good luck getting someone to continue emulation development. The only potential chance for development is exclusively on the under web, and the dev has said that “this was supposed to be a hobby” meaning they have an out if they don’t want to continue
Emulating Switch 2 games on the Steam Deck would be a challenge. Even though it’s on an outdated process node, I think it’s fair to say it’s in the same class of hardware as a Steam Deck (which is 3 years old at this point).
Deck 2, though…
Hardware aside, to my knowledge no one is really actively developing any of the Switch emulators due to the prior legal action that was taken.
Now, eventually it’s possible someone might do it for the Switch 2, but I wouldn’t expect anything quick as whomever does so will very likely incur the mighty wrath of Nintendo’s legal team.
They’d have to sell it for $500, if it’s comparable to the steam deck. I find that unlikely, personally.
The switch was weaker than the PS4, which was the same age difference at launch
Shit, I think you could actually compare it reasonably to a PS3 from 10 years before switch launch
Steam Deck’s APU maxes out at 15W while a launch PS4 does 10 times that. Not a good comparison.
So when they shut down Ryujinx and Yuzu, was it basically “Stop running this emulator or we will ruin your lives with legal bills”?
Iirc, and take this with a grain of salt, ryujinx actually got paid by Nintendo to stop development.
That’s a rumor. All we know is that they talked with the dev behind closed doors and he deleted everything related to Ryujinx afterwards. Sure, they could have paid him but it’s just as likely that they just threatened him. Let’s not forget how Nintendo made its money.
Yes, this wasn’t an admission because it’s a well-known fact that is not inconsistent with Nintendo’s earlier actions. The headline is deceptive and people don’t read the article. The article itself contains no new information and it is only worth reading for someone who has been deceived by the headline and needs to be set straight by the same people who wrote the deceptive headline. It’s click bait that shouldn’t exist.
Nintendo used to have a page on emulation on their website incorrectly claiming that it was always illegal and all emulators had solely been created to enable piracy. This new claim is not compatible with their previous action of having that page.
Is it possible to emulate without bypassing encryption?
I don’t recall finding any encryption on the NES.
In theory, it’s possible for games that don’t use encryption. None of which are official Switch games.
Repeal the DMCA. One of the worst pieces of legislation ever passed.
while were at it, let’s get rid of copyright and IP law altogether
I’m sure we’ll have much better content too, once lots of companies stop investing in games, movies, and shows if that happens 🙄
Wtf
I was a life long Nintendo fan boy. I have every system excluding the virtual boy cuz of the headaches, and the Wii u because I was under employed when it released. I stopped buying Nintendo after Gary Bowser, their software is janky, and bad for 2000’s level of web portal. I had already complained to Nintendo as a long term investor, and instead of innovating their software and hardware, they litigate away anything that might be considered competition and sue into poverty anyone that alters the devices. I never altered my switch, but I stand on the side of the hackers because Nintendo desperately needed to create a quality software core for their switch family. They want their software to be an extremely basic game launcher, and in modern software terms, that’s just incompetent. I stopped buying Nintendo because Nintendo stopped innovating their software, started litigating their profits, and relied solely on old worn out IP instead of creating something new and fresh. You know how many new games are gonna launch on switch 2? Less than 5. Know what one of the first 10 games is gonna be? Mario. Want another? Probably a racing game that’s another rehash but has something blandly new and shiny, like space ship racing with gerbils(instead of diddy Kong racing, or jet ski racing etc). Nintendo has no new IP ideas, and while I was mostly OK suffering through the tired old crap to get to whatever gameplay innovation they made, they seem to have abandoned the gameplay innovation entirely, and are just suing people to force them to play their games the way they want, even if they already received money for the game and system. Whatever they might have in store for the switch 2, so long as Gary Bowser is living in debt to Nintendo, I will never purchase another Nintendo product new, ever again, and I will only purchase used if they have an absolute banger of a game, but I’m only buying that used as well. No profit to Nintendo. I can buy off eBay.
Time to counter-sue?
You know they got DEEP pockets.
“please buy our new switch”
nah, i m good.
With the Switch 2 announcement, it’s kind of clear that they aren’t even trying to be a tech company anymore. While not every last one of their consoles released was a true innovation, it did feel like something that was built into part of their brand. Now we just have the Switch 2 which is mostly what you’d expect with some decent QoL upgrades.
Nintendo is pursuing the walled garden approach. You’re barely even buying a console anymore, a lot of this hardware has more or less converged. What you’re buying is access to the cultivated ecosystem. Like everything else these days, they entice you in with the big, recognizable brands and hope there’s enough else to keep you there. Emulators straight pierce that veil and it’s why they went so hard on them.
I’m not criticizing (too heavily) the people that choose to hold on to the franchises they love, but once you step outside and choose alternatives, there’s very little to bring you back. Pokemon lost me a few gens ago, honestly not the biggest Zelda fan, and Mario alone won’t do it for me. Metroid and Starfox are scattershot … Personally I’ll stick with the Steam Deck and wait for Switch 2 emulation to roll around. And if it doesn’t, there are just so many other games to play these days.
I don’t think Nintendo ever tried to be a tech company. They have always been a game company first and foremost. If they were ever a kind of tech company, the closest analogy would be Apple, another company that focused on consumer electronics.
I wouldn’t say ALWAYS, seeing as how they also tried their hand at taxis and love hotels for a while there.
What walled garden are you talking about? Exclusive games? Literally every console ever made has those.
Nintendo bad for making QoL console releases? Again, Nintendo is not the only company to do that. PS4/PS5 Pro, the recent Xboxes, etc
With emulators, they’re only trying to protect their current hardware. They’ve put basically zero effort into shutting down emulators for consoles they don’t sell anymore. Yeah, I’m with everyone else in wishing they didn’t shut down the switch emulators but it’s somewhat understandable that they’re trying to protect their revenue from hardware sales
Nintendo has a history of doing something different each hardware generation: Snes had the 4 button + shoulder buttons controller. N64 controller was designed for someone with 3 hands, DS had 2 screens, 3DS had 3d without glasses, Wii had motion controls, Wii U the tablet controller, Switch is a console and portable… Every system had something that made it unique. What’s unique about the Switch 2?
Nintendo is not able to compete with other consoles on power, it’s the unique hardware that gives a reason to own it over something else.
Technically correct. They may not be shutting down emulators, but if they hear a whisper of a ROM for Mappy Land on the NES they have their lawyers on speed dial. ( Me typing that sentence means someone from Nintendo is now watching this thread to see if anyone links to a ROM.)
removed by mod
Bingo. In an age where most people’s phones have better hardware than the Switch, it’s all about access to the walled garden instead of hardware.
Not that I disagree with your point about walled gardens, but “better” hardware for a handheld gaming machine needs to have a decent balance between performance and battery life. Longest plane or train journey that I’m likely to take is about five hours, and I’d need to rate any gaming hardware on the ability to run for that length of time. On that basis, the Switch is pretty much optimal. My phone has a higher resolution and can probably push more frames, but it would run hot for about forty-five minutes maximum. Plus, I’d then not be able to make calls or listen to tunes at my destination.
Steam deck would probably be a better choice, though. Fuck Nintendo.
If they spent half their lawyer money on making good games they wouldn’t be losing money to competition
I think Nintendo first party games are great. And I certainly don’t think they’re losing money… the Switch has the most global sales of any current console by a lot. In fact, the PS2 is the only non-Nintendo console to have sold more.
Strange that they targeted Palworld but not any of the other monster collector games that came out in the last 10 yesrs that weren’t nearly as successful.
They don’t need the money, but them wanting other developers money is what makes them do these petty lawsuits. And if they really wanted the money then they could have just made the pokemon game that Palworld ended up filling the niche for.
But they’re lazy and greedy instead of a fun games company so they choose to hire lawyers to suppress real competitors
Keep in mind everyone, nintendo started out as a toy company and never lost that culture.
They aren’t your friends and they aren’t “better than the rest.”
Arguable, but I think they do both.
Stop buying Nintendo, mkay?
Nintendo lost my business long ago nothing they make or say will get me to buy another Nintendo product
Glad I never bought a switch.
In fact, ever since the PS4 I’ve been strictly a PC gamer.
Seeing how Microsoft was able to lower everyone’s standards by charging for online really puts things into perspective for me.
It’s great because now I don’t have to buy hardware or software. Looking forward to emulating switch 2 games before they’re even released like ToTK, lol.