Here’s an article on GigaOm from 2012 titled “The Growing Epidemic of Page Bloat”. It warns that the average web page is over a megabyte in size.
The article itself is 1.8 megabytes long.
The problem with picking any particular size as a threshold is that it encourages us to define deviancy down. Today’s egregiously bloated site becomes tomorrow’s typical page, and next year’s elegantly slim design.
The author links their tweet saying “your website should not exceed in file size the major works of Russian literature.” At the time, that page on Twitter was 900 KB. Today it is 11 MB.
I work on a full blown web app, and we’re about 11 MB (will look into trimming the fat). We have features like PDF report generation, 2D drawing, and fairly heavy algorithms relevant to our industry. We have thousands of Typescript files, and something like 500k+ lines of code. We also have lots of SVGs for icons, canvas stickers, etc.
So after all that, we’re about the size of an average Twitter/X page. Those are not the same order of magnitude in complexity…
I ended up using a static site generator for my personal site because I fucking hate JS and frameworks and WebComponents. The front page is 646 KB and it loads in 4 seconds. I’d love for it to be 1 second or less, but the fonts are a factor.
And I shrunk the shit out of that background too with pngcrush so miss me with that.
I’m not sure if the possibility is there depending on your use case (eg.: you are exporting the fonts) nor if the cost of doing it would be worth the shot, but you can send minified versions variants of fonts, too.
Honestly, 4 seconds is really slow, especially with static HTML. I built my first companies’ site myself, it includes a video on the front page and jquery, is built by PHP, and on descent Internet connections the front page will load in slightly over a second, other pages dip under that.
There are loads of tweaks you can make to -any- site, and total amount of bytes really isn’t the only speed factor here.
And how do you plan to manage your posts, database etc. and render stuff in those? You still need some backend solution like Wordpress, you can use vue as a frontend library for it… or vanilla JS, or jQuery…
So… you are aware that FastAPI and Flask will always be significantly slower than Wordpress… because Python, always running processes etc.?
You’re building a simple website / blog just use Wordpress, it will output most of the pages into plan simple and fast HTML, then add a few pieces of vanilla JS or Vue (if you’re into that) to make things “fluffier”. Why bother with constant XHR requests when you’re just serving simple text pages?
With Wordpress you’ll also get all the management, roles, permissions, backend for “free” and you can always, like sane people, cache the output of the most visited pages. Wordpress also provides a RESTful API if required.
I gotta say I came in here to flex and I learned so much. I am going to roll some of these changes really soon once I find out where to best add them to my Hugo template. I’m going to reply to some of them below to clarify some things:
It may be worthwhile to experiment with adding some preload links to the html template? or output? like below and assessing if it makes things faster for you.
This is the most interesting because I didn’t even know this was possible with HTML5, so I want to add this right away.
I have a pixel 6 and notice some lag in scrolling. Could it be that you don’t use srcsets but instead huge screenshots no matter the device screen?
The background is a large image in the CSS via background-image, I don’t know how easy it would be to change it to a srcset but I will give it a shot
The fonts can be loaded from another file that ends in the cache, lowering load time next time.
At the very least they need to load last because they are the largest burden
Haven’t done this type of optimizing in a long time, I had a quick look at the network graph for your front page (F12 dev tools in desktop browser), my understanding is it looks like you are getting blocked from loading additional resources (fonts + background) until your style sheets are fully read --pink line is document loaded i believe.
It may be worthwhile to experiment with adding some preload links to the html template? or output? like below and assessing if it makes things faster for you.
Not that you’d want to because you hate JS and web components and all that, and there’s nothing wrong with your website, but NextJS supports Static Site generation.
So, JS and frameworks and webcomponents can get the job done for simple stuff nowadays. My portfolio page has a load time of 631 ms using the SSG built into NextJS, and its really similar to your website.
A lot of devs I know are purely ticket in ticket out… so unless someone convinced management there’s a performance problem and that they’d need to prioritize it over new features (good luck), then it will not be done.
Not to suggest you don’t deserve to be paid more, but it feels like the issue would more be that the people paying for the site aren’t instructing the people that develop it to make these accommodations.
Because I know plenty of devs that just straight up don’t give a shit about accommodating low-end devices, regardless of what they’re paid. It’s like a point of pride almost.
Hell, that’s the energy of the DontKillMyApp people: they just straight up think their app should use as many resources as it likes as long as it likes, and they shouldn’t have to be considerate in development. Strain on device be damned.
I’ve seen some that straight up admit they don’t even think the user should be able to kill an app process.
I know this isn’t the main point of your comment, but DontKillMyApp is about much more than system resource management. It’s about consistent behavior so that developers can program to a standard rather than a wild west of whatever a handset decides to do.
Either you write your app to accommodate every special case implementation of background execution requirements, or users get upset when the instant message isn’t delivered and blame the app.
To make matters worse, many Chinese devices just kill everything in the background that’s not on a hard coded whitelist. This is a failure of Android when it doesn’t require consistent behavior. On these devices, applications that have a legitimate reason to run in the background just don’t work correctly.
I think the situation is getting much better with recent Android versions.
To make matters worse, many Chinese devices just kill everything in the background that’s not on a hard coded whitelist.
Looking at Xiaomi’s Miui here. My last phone was a Xiaomi one and it was great. It didn’t take long for me to install LineageOS on it tho because Miui is horrible. It killed every app you had opened the second you switched to another one. Things like email verification codes were literally impossible to enter into an app because when you went into your mail app, copied the code and then went back into the app you wanted to enter it in, that app would have to start up again because it was already killed in the background.
Also, Miui itself used up like half my RAM without anything being opened and it was buggy as hell.
When my title changed from web developer to software developer I got a 60% pay increase, but my job hardly changed in reality. I still only make just enough to do doordash on the side as an extra safety net and not as a necessity to afford food.
But when anyone asks what I do for work and I tell them, they immediately assume we’re absolutely loaded and I’m picking up the check everywhere we go.
Yup. I do make a fair bit more than the average person, but I have a family, kids, and a lot of experience. I’m far from poor, but I’m not making what people seem to assume I make. I live in a middle-class area, my kids go to publicly funded schools, and I drive reliable, older cars (both ~15yo, will be replacing one soon for something <10yo).
I probably could make $200k+, but I’d have to work crazy hours doing unethical work. As it stands, I’m in the 12% tax bracket, so very much in the middle class, and I choose to make less in exchange for a better work/life balance. Fortunately, my wife doesn’t have to work for us to make ends meet, and the same goes for a few of my coworkers (one legally can’t because of immigration nonsense). If we both did what I do (my wife couldn’t, she doesn’t have the formal education or experience for that), we’d be rich, but that’s just not the case.
If you don’t mind me asking what do you do? I’m always curious since truthfully the $200k/y fang jobs sometime make me think I’m the odd one out who’s not gonna retire by 40. And as primarily a perl developer on a team of 2 I feel like were in our own world most of the time.
I’m a team lead at a non-tech company (we manufacture stuff) in a tech division writing primarily in Python and JavaScript.
We pay around the 60-70 percentile for our area, and I work 3 days at home, 2 in the office. We have a really flexible work policy and I just need to leave a note for the team if I take off 1-2 hours during regular work hours (9-4) for an appointment or something. I rarely work more than 8 hours in a day, and if I do, I can take a few hours off the next day (has happened maybe 5 times in the 3 years I’ve worked here).
There are some negatives though:
our company is based in Australia, I work with teams in Europe and India, and I’m based in the US, so meetings can be at awkward times
we have lots of teams in the same codebase, so SW development can be complex
our internal team (my team) was hired after our main external partner built the initial app, so there’s some politics involved
I have to commute 25 miles when I do go in (I’m not interested in moving)
benefits are kinda mediocre, and no stock options
But all in all, my boss rocks, pay is decent, and work life balance is pretty much ideal. I’m shooting to retire early-ish, but not crazy early.
I could probably double my salary by working my butt off at a startup or FAANG, but I really prefer where I’m at. I make almost double the local average income, so I’m paid well and live comfortably, but I’m not rich by any stretch.
The appendices of that post could use a rewrite. They read weird:
An example we’ve discussed before, is at a well-known, prestigious, startup that has a very left-leaning employee base, where everyone got rich, on a discussion about the covid stimulus checks, in a slack discussion, a well meaning progressive employee said that it was pointless because people would just use their stimulus checks to buy stock.
The Opera browser of old had a menu with custom styles (a few default plus you could add your own), I think it had one that converted to sans serif, that plus a columns width one would be perfect for this site
While reviews note that you can run PUBG and other 3D games with decent performance on a Tecno Spark 8C, this doesn’t mean that the device is fast enough to read posts on modern text-centric social media platforms or modern text-centric web forums. While 40fps is achievable in PUBG, we can easily see less than 0.4fps when scrolling on these sites.
I always think it’s unfair to compare things to video games. Video games are so inefficient they had to invent a separate processor with hundreds of cores just to run them. Of course they end up running well.
If cheap phones had a 128-core JavaScript Processing Unit, websites would probably run fast too.
Well, graphics rendering is very suited for parallelism. That’s why GPUs were invented.
Most other tasks are not. Most of the cores in a 128-core JPU would end up being unused. Also why JPU? It’s not like it’s significantly different from a normal CPU task.
Then again, those 100 MB are usually mostly assets I want to look at or listen to. Certain websites contain 100 kB of text and pictures I want to look at and load 2 MB of JavaScript frameworks that add nothing to the usability of the site. Bonus points for automatically streaming a 20 MB video I don’t want to watch while I look for one sentence’s worth of information.
Imagine that, people don’t mind when they have to wait 10-15 minutes every once in a while for their game to update, but they do mind waiting 15-30 seconds every time they navigate to a new webpage.
I have a limited amount of bandwith on my mobile plan
if i know a game download is large i go home where i have broadband; i dont download large files over mobile internet
a text-only website can be rather small with only a few KB. It’s only when you get ““Designers”” that things start to bloat, because the system fonts are not good enough and 2MB in extra fonts no sane visitor will ever notice must be downloaded.
the marketing department REALLY needs those 10 extra trackers and analytics scripts that take 5s to load, even if they last looked at the visitor stats back in 2021 and the login has long been forgotten.
the CEO wanted that animated AI powered talking gorilla widget he had seen on a local tradeshow where the customers can ask product or website questions (spoiler: they dont!), which ads a few more Megabytes to each pageload even before you even use it.
Video game developer here. A lot of anti-optimiation sentiment are just excuses and/or part of some dumb trend.
Oh no, compiled languages require you to choose between variable types! Better use Javascript.
Why should we develop a proper portable app environment when we have Electron? It can even run in browsers. Imagine if you didn’t had to go to your pops to install the word processor, instead he just types in wordprocessor dot app into the browser?
What if code was so easy to understand you didn’t had to document it, and each macroblock of a function instead were a named function, so they’d be automatically documented?
And this is just the tip of the iceberg. I’m currently writing my own scripting VM, as most others have their own limitations, and would introduce a barely usable build system to my game engine (which are their own can of worms). Code as data is a very useful feature, but having to include DLL files as scripts would be very complicated due to platform differences, although also very fast. Issue comes when people treat scripting languages as full-fledged programming languages, and even scaring away beginners from compiled languages, because you have to compile them, you have to choose a type, etc.
The real irony is that you can make games entirely with Javascript (no backend server needed) and I wouldn’t be surprised if some of those games, even with 3D rendering via three.js or babylonjs, performed better than certain websites
If you want scripting languages to be fast, there are options, so the decision should instead be made based on the benefits of each. For example:
scripting languages - generally better edit/reload experience, write once, run anywhere an interpreter exists
compiled languages - catch common errors before running, lots of fixes for various platforms
I’m super interested in Rust because it catches way more common errors than most compiled languages, so you’re getting a lot more value for that compile step. My day job is Python + Javascript, though I have nearly 10 years with Go and most of my personal projects use Rust these days, so I feel like I’m fairly experienced here.
just excuses and/or part of some dumb trend
I agree. There are good reasons to prefer scripting languages to compiled languages and vice versa, but most people don’t seem to decide based on those reasons, they often decide based on what’s easier to hire for, what they’re familiar with, or what’s already being used.
I’m super excited about Rust gaining traction because it’s basically the best case for a compiled language I’ve seen. Maybe it’ll revise the trend toward higher level languages and encourage a bit more provable correctness.
My simple home page is 10 KB now. And you might not think that’s such a big deal, but it has more content than Google’s search page and that rings in at a couple MB IIRC. 😁
Press Ctrl+F5 to reaload the whole page (including previously cached files)
under the list of transfered files in the greyish bar above the debug console (if enabled…) you see the total number of requests the site made and the total filesize that has been transfered; lower is better.
In the developer tools in the Network tab. FF sums it up at the bottom of the list when you reload (e.g. for this page “24 requests, 4.74 MB transferred”). Chrome must have something similar. Be sure to check “Disable cache” in the devtools.
If you can’t answer this question you’re doing it wrong. It should be as simple as “how large are the files in my web hosting folder”. All this fucking tech stack bloat is so unnecessary.
Chrome reports the memory a tab uses if you hover over the tab.
Look at the task manager within your browser. Try clicking on the burger bar, then “More tools” and “Task Manager” within the browser.
On the contrary! I absolutely loathe how bloated webpages have become over the last few decades, so it’s very refreshing and laudable to see a webpage that tries to keep itself as small as possible.
At work we have this timecard management system that’s an enormous pain to use. All the bottom rung employees hate it because it’s anything but intuitive. For example, it has stupid things like weekdays sorted alphabetically and a scroll bar to select the day of the month in a form. It’s like the interfaces were tested exactly one time and never visited again, so long as it works minimally.
What’s this crappy app have to do with big web pages? That application is awful for us worker bees, but management loves it because it produces nice reports. Management is the real customer for which the product is optimized. Similarly, many web pages are awful because they’re mainly rated on how it looks. Nobody is including how fast it loads in the contract, and at the product demo you bet those resources are cached in the browser.
Ask yourself: who with the money in hand is actually looking at how fast the page loads on a slow connection or low-end devices?
it has stupid things like weekdays sorted alphabetically
Holy shit, that’s stupid. Why would you even do this in the first place?! I can’t comprehend how anyone could come to the conclusion that that’s a good way to sort it.
At my current dev role I try to do optimizations to make new system area pages pretty lightweight, but it’s a bit of a struggle as I’m working with devs who have been in the same role for decades. WCAG is not prioritized, and they pull in a ton of JS libraries that usually aren’t even used. A lot of the practices I see in use are from 10 years ago, but slowly tidying up the horror show with each dev product meeting.
Admittedly could be much worse though, at least our pages aren’t 21MB large.
Ours doesn’t even try at all, because we’re largely a B2B shop and we know our customers (in the low thousands). It’s still dumb, because we could totally hire a QA or developer who has some kind of need where accessibility would be helpful, and we even have a couple of colorblind people on the team, yet we don’t prioritize anything. It’s a little disappointing, but I guess the need hasn’t arisen yet.
We build a very interactive web app with tons of data, and a fresh load is still well under 21MB (looks like ~5MB transferred over the network, ~15MB total). I don’t understand how a typical website could use more than our app when we do lots of complex stuff (2D drawing library, lots of calculations, we’re adding in 3D soon, etc).
if you watch steve jobs’ 2007 iphone keynote it’s incredibly depressing now. he brags about how the iphone can load full, rich webpages instead of awful mobile versions; he loads the NYT website and gets the whole lush landscape desktop version, and taps to zoom in on certain elements. i used to be such a dork and so into tech in high school, it seemed so promising and wondrous.
i bet jobs could’ve yelled at spez about the API changes and gotten him to relent
i bet jobs could’ve yelled at spez about the API changes and gotten him to relent
Why would Jobs care? Reddit’s app goes through the app store, Apple gets a cut of any premium users buy on it.
And why would Spez relent to Jobs? Everything Spez is doing is to get maximum payout from the IPO and then cash out. He doesn’t give a shit about the actual site anymore.
“Full rich webpages” on a 2007 iPhone meant bare HTML and a kilobyte of Javascript. Anything fancy would be in Flash because JS was slow as balls, and the iPhone never ran Flash.
Ruffle gives it support, no EU good-intention-poor-implementation regulation required. The demo link I shared above works with any browser, built in Safari included.
Oh I know, I was just suggesting more-direct support was possible. Genuine stupid coverage for a long-dead plugin.
Maybe someone could coerce Dolphin browser from Android to iOS.
I do have to say, Ruffle is the most boringly-named of the “let’s do Flash in JS” projects. The first big one was named Gordon, in an obvious pun. The follow-up was named Shumway, in a less-obvious pun. About ALF.
Speaking of historical Flash support, I actually forgot the old Puffin Browser which I’ve bought back in 2011, and apparently is still around. They run a browser on their server and you get a VNC-like client to access that instance. So by no means native support, but it was super functional at least back in the days — haven’t used it for years since I stopped buying iPads as my use case are better suited for the Mac and the iPhone instead.
That is dedication I absolutely would not match. I bought Android for software freedom and mmmight have watched some pivotal Homestuck animations on a Droid 2 Global.
I’d hazard a guess and say it all stems from advancements in tech. There was a need to get the most out of something because of limited resources. Now that everyone’s got some fairly serious hardware (yes, even the cheap shit), there’s rarely that urge to optimize.
Rather than optimize each new technology as it comes along and gets adopted, it seems as though the mantra is “fuck it, add it to the pile”. And it snowballs. As developers feel the need to optimize less, the lessons get passed down to the next generation, and so on.
So we’re left with apps/end-user stuff that appear to have been on the opposite of a diet.
When ever I used to have issues with my internet I used to use news.com.au as a test to see if the issue was fixed, if that site loaded than anything would.
I think about that show surprisingly often and how amazing a compression method like that would be right now. Our internet and storage speeds have not remotely kept up with the rapidly expanding size of files these days.
My old project I got to architect the frontend ran lean at around 300KB - part of our target audience had older phones so it was designed with that in mind.
At my new job 22MB is child’s play. To be fair they might do it better with the next version.
Similar to me. Previous job we tried our best to squeeze any ounce of optimisation out of it. Mainly because I was on the SEO team and we had to focus on the core web vitals. Everything was deferred and every image was optimised.
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: [email protected]
This is the official technology community of Lemmy.ml for all news related to creation and use of technology, and to facilitate civil, meaningful discussion around it.
Ask in DM before posting product reviews or ads. All such posts otherwise are subject to removal.
Rules:
1: All Lemmy rules apply
2: Do not post low effort posts
3: NEVER post naziped*gore stuff
4: Always post article URLs or their archived version URLs as sources, NOT screenshots. Help the blind users.
5: personal rants of Big Tech CEOs like Elon Musk are unwelcome (does not include posts about their companies affecting wide range of people)
6: no advertisement posts unless verified as legitimate and non-exploitative/non-consumerist
7: crypto related posts, unless essential, are disallowed
And thats why i believe that ublock origin is needed for modern web browsing
deleted by creator
Yup. If websites respected me, I’d respect them back and not need uBlock Origin.
deleted by creator
Yup, hence why uBlock Origin stays on.
Wet Ass Pussy is clearly the answer.
I have a WAP phone, and to my surprise google loads
I’m delighted. I wonder if they still employ one lone engineer with the title “WAP Architect” :-)
See also The Website Obesity Crisis, nearly a decade ago.
The author links their tweet saying “your website should not exceed in file size the major works of Russian literature.” At the time, that page on Twitter was 900 KB. Today it is 11 MB.
And a lot of that is tracking nonsense.
I work on a full blown web app, and we’re about 11 MB (will look into trimming the fat). We have features like PDF report generation, 2D drawing, and fairly heavy algorithms relevant to our industry. We have thousands of Typescript files, and something like 500k+ lines of code. We also have lots of SVGs for icons, canvas stickers, etc.
So after all that, we’re about the size of an average Twitter/X page. Those are not the same order of magnitude in complexity…
That’s in the slides. It’s one of my favorites:
I ended up using a static site generator for my personal site because I fucking hate JS and frameworks and WebComponents. The front page is 646 KB and it loads in 4 seconds. I’d love for it to be 1 second or less, but the fonts are a factor.
And I shrunk the shit out of that background too with pngcrush so miss me with that.
Loaded pretty much instantaneously on my phone (a second at most). Then again, I block third party fonts.
The entire Material Design framework in JS and Web Components in 80kb
https://clshortfuse.github.io/materialdesignweb/components/buttons.html
JS and Web Components are not the problem. Poor design is.
The fonts can be loaded from another file that ends in the cache, lowering load time next time.
I’m not sure if the possibility is there depending on your use case (eg.: you are exporting the fonts) nor if the cost of doing it would be worth the shot, but you can send minified
versionsvariants of fonts, too.Honestly, 4 seconds is really slow, especially with static HTML. I built my first companies’ site myself, it includes a video on the front page and jquery, is built by PHP, and on descent Internet connections the front page will load in slightly over a second, other pages dip under that.
There are loads of tweaks you can make to -any- site, and total amount of bytes really isn’t the only speed factor here.
My front page is 613KB with Wordpress. Moral of the story, you don’t have to use a static website generator to have light things.
Check out https://250kb.club all performance sites focused on speed and small size.
Or maybe the 512kb.club a more reasonable balance between 250 club and the 1mb club.
Also with a view: jankfree.org for a similar focus on performance.
Can I achieve the same with vue.js or flutter? I need to learn this
Yes. You can. I have a personal site that is using nuxt static site mode and it renders extremely fast and clean output.
And how do you plan to manage your posts, database etc. and render stuff in those? You still need some backend solution like Wordpress, you can use vue as a frontend library for it… or vanilla JS, or jQuery…
Ah, for that I’ll just dump some fast API or flask thing. Vue or flutter will just handle the front end
So… you are aware that FastAPI and Flask will always be significantly slower than Wordpress… because Python, always running processes etc.?
You’re building a simple website / blog just use Wordpress, it will output most of the pages into plan simple and fast HTML, then add a few pieces of vanilla JS or Vue (if you’re into that) to make things “fluffier”. Why bother with constant XHR requests when you’re just serving simple text pages?
With Wordpress you’ll also get all the management, roles, permissions, backend for “free” and you can always, like sane people, cache the output of the most visited pages. Wordpress also provides a RESTful API if required.
No I mean, I wanna make a full project but without bloating the front end website
I love all your replies.
You wouldn’t get these responses from stackoverflow.
This isn’t even a programming or development community…it’s a general interest one.
You didn’t even ask for help.
I gotta say I came in here to flex and I learned so much. I am going to roll some of these changes really soon once I find out where to best add them to my Hugo template. I’m going to reply to some of them below to clarify some things:
This is the most interesting because I didn’t even know this was possible with HTML5, so I want to add this right away.
The background is a large image in the CSS via background-image, I don’t know how easy it would be to change it to a srcset but I will give it a shot
At the very least they need to load last because they are the largest burden
I have a pixel 6 and notice some lag in scrolling. Could it be that you don’t use srcsets but instead huge screenshots no matter the device screen?
Haven’t done this type of optimizing in a long time, I had a quick look at the network graph for your front page (F12 dev tools in desktop browser), my understanding is it looks like you are getting blocked from loading additional resources (fonts + background) until your style sheets are fully read --pink line is document loaded i believe.
It may be worthwhile to experiment with adding some preload links to the html template? or output? like below and assessing if it makes things faster for you.
<link rel="preload" as="image" href="https://volcanolair.co/img/bg1-ultracompressed.webp" fetchpriority="high"><link rel="preload" as="font" href="https://volcanolair.co/fonts/Inter-Regular.woff2"><link rel="preload" as="font" href="https://volcanolair.co/fonts/Inter-Bold.woff2">Not that you’d want to because you hate JS and web components and all that, and there’s nothing wrong with your website, but NextJS supports Static Site generation.
So, JS and frameworks and webcomponents can get the job done for simple stuff nowadays. My portfolio page has a load time of 631 ms using the SSG built into NextJS, and its really similar to your website.
If only they paid web developers more…
I could not give two fucks about the memory efficiency of a web page I worked on since I barely take enough home to afford groceries.
Unless they pay me more to care, it’s still your problem internet person.
A lot of devs I know are purely ticket in ticket out… so unless someone convinced management there’s a performance problem and that they’d need to prioritize it over new features (good luck), then it will not be done.
i (barely) get paid to solve tickets, i’m not gonna fight with management for them to do their job properly.
Not to suggest you don’t deserve to be paid more, but it feels like the issue would more be that the people paying for the site aren’t instructing the people that develop it to make these accommodations.
Because I know plenty of devs that just straight up don’t give a shit about accommodating low-end devices, regardless of what they’re paid. It’s like a point of pride almost.
Hell, that’s the energy of the DontKillMyApp people: they just straight up think their app should use as many resources as it likes as long as it likes, and they shouldn’t have to be considerate in development. Strain on device be damned.
I’ve seen some that straight up admit they don’t even think the user should be able to kill an app process.
I know this isn’t the main point of your comment, but DontKillMyApp is about much more than system resource management. It’s about consistent behavior so that developers can program to a standard rather than a wild west of whatever a handset decides to do.
Either you write your app to accommodate every special case implementation of background execution requirements, or users get upset when the instant message isn’t delivered and blame the app.
To make matters worse, many Chinese devices just kill everything in the background that’s not on a hard coded whitelist. This is a failure of Android when it doesn’t require consistent behavior. On these devices, applications that have a legitimate reason to run in the background just don’t work correctly.
I think the situation is getting much better with recent Android versions.
Looking at Xiaomi’s Miui here. My last phone was a Xiaomi one and it was great. It didn’t take long for me to install LineageOS on it tho because Miui is horrible. It killed every app you had opened the second you switched to another one. Things like email verification codes were literally impossible to enter into an app because when you went into your mail app, copied the code and then went back into the app you wanted to enter it in, that app would have to start up again because it was already killed in the background.
Also, Miui itself used up like half my RAM without anything being opened and it was buggy as hell.
They do this because it pumps up those battery statistics but it harms the user experience which is much harder to test.
When my title changed from web developer to software developer I got a 60% pay increase, but my job hardly changed in reality. I still only make just enough to do doordash on the side as an extra safety net and not as a necessity to afford food.
But when anyone asks what I do for work and I tell them, they immediately assume we’re absolutely loaded and I’m picking up the check everywhere we go.
Yup. I do make a fair bit more than the average person, but I have a family, kids, and a lot of experience. I’m far from poor, but I’m not making what people seem to assume I make. I live in a middle-class area, my kids go to publicly funded schools, and I drive reliable, older cars (both ~15yo, will be replacing one soon for something <10yo).
I probably could make $200k+, but I’d have to work crazy hours doing unethical work. As it stands, I’m in the 12% tax bracket, so very much in the middle class, and I choose to make less in exchange for a better work/life balance. Fortunately, my wife doesn’t have to work for us to make ends meet, and the same goes for a few of my coworkers (one legally can’t because of immigration nonsense). If we both did what I do (my wife couldn’t, she doesn’t have the formal education or experience for that), we’d be rich, but that’s just not the case.
If you don’t mind me asking what do you do? I’m always curious since truthfully the $200k/y fang jobs sometime make me think I’m the odd one out who’s not gonna retire by 40. And as primarily a perl developer on a team of 2 I feel like were in our own world most of the time.
I’m a team lead at a non-tech company (we manufacture stuff) in a tech division writing primarily in Python and JavaScript.
We pay around the 60-70 percentile for our area, and I work 3 days at home, 2 in the office. We have a really flexible work policy and I just need to leave a note for the team if I take off 1-2 hours during regular work hours (9-4) for an appointment or something. I rarely work more than 8 hours in a day, and if I do, I can take a few hours off the next day (has happened maybe 5 times in the 3 years I’ve worked here).
There are some negatives though:
But all in all, my boss rocks, pay is decent, and work life balance is pretty much ideal. I’m shooting to retire early-ish, but not crazy early.
I could probably double my salary by working my butt off at a startup or FAANG, but I really prefer where I’m at. I make almost double the local average income, so I’m paid well and live comfortably, but I’m not rich by any stretch.
Original post is a much better read than this blogspam
The appendices of that post could use a rewrite. They read weird:
That reads like ChatGPT used reddit comments to flesh out the “article”.
Wealth beyond measure, sera.
I’m all for reducing the size of webpages with garbage bloat but a little CSS for readability on this site would have gone a long way.
Ps. thanks for sauce
The Opera browser of old had a menu with custom styles (a few default plus you could add your own), I think it had one that converted to sans serif, that plus a columns width one would be perfect for this site
Modern Firefox has “Reader View” that does a similar thing. It’s just less customizable… because it’s modern Firefox.
Does a disservice to the color-coded table on this article, though.
It reads a lot better with Firefox’s reader mode.
Wow, first time I’ve used reader mode and it is awesome!
I don’t agree with him, but if you read the last appendix, this mf wrote half an essay on why he prefers to have basically no styling
Is harder to load than pubg a joke or an actual metric?
ಠ▃ಠ
OH MY GOD IT LOADS SO MUCH FASTER
I always think it’s unfair to compare things to video games. Video games are so inefficient they had to invent a separate processor with hundreds of cores just to run them. Of course they end up running well.
If cheap phones had a 128-core JavaScript Processing Unit, websites would probably run fast too.
Well, graphics rendering is very suited for parallelism. That’s why GPUs were invented.
Most other tasks are not. Most of the cores in a 128-core JPU would end up being unused. Also why JPU? It’s not like it’s significantly different from a normal CPU task.
I don’t think the person you replied to actually knows what they’re talking about.
deleted by creator
Then again, those 100 MB are usually mostly assets I want to look at or listen to. Certain websites contain 100 kB of text and pictures I want to look at and load 2 MB of JavaScript frameworks that add nothing to the usability of the site. Bonus points for automatically streaming a 20 MB video I don’t want to watch while I look for one sentence’s worth of information.
Imagine that, people don’t mind when they have to wait 10-15 minutes every once in a while for their game to update, but they do mind waiting 15-30 seconds every time they navigate to a new webpage.
Video game developer here. A lot of anti-optimiation sentiment are just excuses and/or part of some dumb trend.
Oh no, compiled languages require you to choose between variable types! Better use Javascript.
Why should we develop a proper portable app environment when we have Electron? It can even run in browsers. Imagine if you didn’t had to go to your pops to install the word processor, instead he just types in wordprocessor dot app into the browser?
What if code was so easy to understand you didn’t had to document it, and each macroblock of a function instead were a named function, so they’d be automatically documented?
And this is just the tip of the iceberg. I’m currently writing my own scripting VM, as most others have their own limitations, and would introduce a barely usable build system to my game engine (which are their own can of worms). Code as data is a very useful feature, but having to include DLL files as scripts would be very complicated due to platform differences, although also very fast. Issue comes when people treat scripting languages as full-fledged programming languages, and even scaring away beginners from compiled languages, because you have to compile them, you have to choose a type, etc.
The real irony is that you can make games entirely with Javascript (no backend server needed) and I wouldn’t be surprised if some of those games, even with 3D rendering via three.js or babylonjs, performed better than certain websites
I just want to point out that interpreted languages don’t have to be slow. For example, LuaJIT is competitive with Java in terms of performance, and not that much slower than C. Likewise, PyPy is almost always consistently faster than CPython, and Python 3.13 will have a JIT. I’ve also used numba to improve performance in Python (got close enough to naive Rust to not be worth adding Rust to our pipeline).
If you want scripting languages to be fast, there are options, so the decision should instead be made based on the benefits of each. For example:
I’m super interested in Rust because it catches way more common errors than most compiled languages, so you’re getting a lot more value for that compile step. My day job is Python + Javascript, though I have nearly 10 years with Go and most of my personal projects use Rust these days, so I feel like I’m fairly experienced here.
I agree. There are good reasons to prefer scripting languages to compiled languages and vice versa, but most people don’t seem to decide based on those reasons, they often decide based on what’s easier to hire for, what they’re familiar with, or what’s already being used.
I’m super excited about Rust gaining traction because it’s basically the best case for a compiled language I’ve seen. Maybe it’ll revise the trend toward higher level languages and encourage a bit more provable correctness.
My simple home page is 10 KB now. And you might not think that’s such a big deal, but it has more content than Google’s search page and that rings in at a couple MB IIRC. 😁
How do I measure how much data my page loads? Now I’m curious
Picture: https://superuser.com/a/1718133
Thank you for the detailed answer!
In the developer tools in the Network tab. FF sums it up at the bottom of the list when you reload (e.g. for this page “24 requests, 4.74 MB transferred”). Chrome must have something similar. Be sure to check “Disable cache” in the devtools.
If you can’t answer this question you’re doing it wrong. It should be as simple as “how large are the files in my web hosting folder”. All this fucking tech stack bloat is so unnecessary.
Chrome reports the memory a tab uses if you hover over the tab. Look at the task manager within your browser. Try clicking on the burger bar, then “More tools” and “Task Manager” within the browser.
Oh, I didn’t know I could do this in DevTools! I figured I would need some other tool
On the contrary! I absolutely loathe how bloated webpages have become over the last few decades, so it’s very refreshing and laudable to see a webpage that tries to keep itself as small as possible.
At work we have this timecard management system that’s an enormous pain to use. All the bottom rung employees hate it because it’s anything but intuitive. For example, it has stupid things like weekdays sorted alphabetically and a scroll bar to select the day of the month in a form. It’s like the interfaces were tested exactly one time and never visited again, so long as it works minimally.
What’s this crappy app have to do with big web pages? That application is awful for us worker bees, but management loves it because it produces nice reports. Management is the real customer for which the product is optimized. Similarly, many web pages are awful because they’re mainly rated on how it looks. Nobody is including how fast it loads in the contract, and at the product demo you bet those resources are cached in the browser.
Ask yourself: who with the money in hand is actually looking at how fast the page loads on a slow connection or low-end devices?
TLDR: Looks > performance.
Holy shit, that’s stupid. Why would you even do this in the first place?! I can’t comprehend how anyone could come to the conclusion that that’s a good way to sort it.
alphabetically was probably the default sorting method for an array of data and they didn’t bother to fix it, just my guess.
Then why not use labels?
Value=“1Monday” Label=“Monday”
That’s even more work than skipping the “weekdays” array wherever the sorting happens
At my current dev role I try to do optimizations to make new system area pages pretty lightweight, but it’s a bit of a struggle as I’m working with devs who have been in the same role for decades. WCAG is not prioritized, and they pull in a ton of JS libraries that usually aren’t even used. A lot of the practices I see in use are from 10 years ago, but slowly tidying up the horror show with each dev product meeting.
Admittedly could be much worse though, at least our pages aren’t 21MB large.
Ours doesn’t even try at all, because we’re largely a B2B shop and we know our customers (in the low thousands). It’s still dumb, because we could totally hire a QA or developer who has some kind of need where accessibility would be helpful, and we even have a couple of colorblind people on the team, yet we don’t prioritize anything. It’s a little disappointing, but I guess the need hasn’t arisen yet.
We build a very interactive web app with tons of data, and a fresh load is still well under 21MB (looks like ~5MB transferred over the network, ~15MB total). I don’t understand how a typical website could use more than our app when we do lots of complex stuff (2D drawing library, lots of calculations, we’re adding in 3D soon, etc).
Friday Monday Saturday Sunday Thursday Tuesday Wednesday
In its defense, that also flows better if you’re trying to sing it.
You could probably write a browser plug-in / extension to manipulate the DOM to fix these issues.
Also yes, some people look at page load times. Our team does this. But apparently not a lot of people do this, judging by the replies in this thread.
Yeah, I’m guessing a bunch of random workers are going to do that…
A UserScript or UserStyle could fix it up.
And make some clueless Facebook addict with seventeen toolbars scream “You haCKED OUR WEBSITE?!”
if you watch steve jobs’ 2007 iphone keynote it’s incredibly depressing now. he brags about how the iphone can load full, rich webpages instead of awful mobile versions; he loads the NYT website and gets the whole lush landscape desktop version, and taps to zoom in on certain elements. i used to be such a dork and so into tech in high school, it seemed so promising and wondrous.
i bet jobs could’ve yelled at spez about the API changes and gotten him to relent
Why would Jobs care? Reddit’s app goes through the app store, Apple gets a cut of any premium users buy on it.
And why would Spez relent to Jobs? Everything Spez is doing is to get maximum payout from the IPO and then cash out. He doesn’t give a shit about the actual site anymore.
the guy that was convinced apples could cure his cancer?
“Full rich webpages” on a 2007 iPhone meant bare HTML and a kilobyte of Javascript. Anything fancy would be in Flash because JS was slow as balls, and the iPhone never ran Flash.
Ruffle has (recently, for me) entered the chat.
Not that this negates the performance concerns, but just that Flash on iPhone is becoming a possibility.
If we’re counting now and into the future, the EU has coerced them to finally tolerate other browsers.
… not that I’m aware of any current browser with Flash support.
Ruffle gives it support, no EU good-intention-poor-implementation regulation required. The demo link I shared above works with any browser, built in Safari included.
Oh I know, I was just suggesting more-direct support was possible. Genuine stupid coverage for a long-dead plugin.
Maybe someone could coerce Dolphin browser from Android to iOS.
I do have to say, Ruffle is the most boringly-named of the “let’s do Flash in JS” projects. The first big one was named Gordon, in an obvious pun. The follow-up was named Shumway, in a less-obvious pun. About ALF.
Speaking of historical Flash support, I actually forgot the old Puffin Browser which I’ve bought back in 2011, and apparently is still around. They run a browser on their server and you get a VNC-like client to access that instance. So by no means native support, but it was super functional at least back in the days — haven’t used it for years since I stopped buying iPads as my use case are better suited for the Mac and the iPhone instead.
That is dedication I absolutely would not match. I bought Android for software freedom and mmmight have watched some pivotal Homestuck animations on a Droid 2 Global.
Even now, please don’t give Apple money.
I’d hazard a guess and say it all stems from advancements in tech. There was a need to get the most out of something because of limited resources. Now that everyone’s got some fairly serious hardware (yes, even the cheap shit), there’s rarely that urge to optimize.
Rather than optimize each new technology as it comes along and gets adopted, it seems as though the mantra is “fuck it, add it to the pile”. And it snowballs. As developers feel the need to optimize less, the lessons get passed down to the next generation, and so on.
So we’re left with apps/end-user stuff that appear to have been on the opposite of a diet.
B-B-BUT STORAGE’S CHEAP, BRAH!!!11! INTERNET’S FAST!!!11 CPUS ARE POWERFUL11!
Sorry, not everyone speaks rich and not everyone speaks poor
Me, with my cheap Motorola: you guys have internet problems?
When ever I used to have issues with my internet I used to use news.com.au as a test to see if the issue was fixed, if that site loaded than anything would.
Don’t worry, a new internet is coming soon. Then we can leave all this behind.
We can’t even adopt IPv6 properly, let alone implement and migrate to a new and improved internet.
You mean Web3? Yeah Web3 is going to do jack shit to solve this, if anything it’ll make it worse
No, I don’t mean web3
Then what? Implants from musk? Or all audio like podcasts for everything (which is also not better whatever the marketing says).
Maybe Piper Net (Silicon Valley)
Piper Net sitting on a couch surrounded by BBC (Big Bastard Companies)
I think about that show surprisingly often and how amazing a compression method like that would be right now. Our internet and storage speeds have not remotely kept up with the rapidly expanding size of files these days.
Guess where they got their inspiration from?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/where-is-hbo-silicon-valleys-real-pied-piper-look-in-troon-scotland
AKA the new internet (the SAFE network) that has been in development for 18 years and is about to hit beta here in the upcoming weeks.
Maybe they’re talking about the fediverse or something? Idk.
My old project I got to architect the frontend ran lean at around 300KB - part of our target audience had older phones so it was designed with that in mind.
At my new job 22MB is child’s play. To be fair they might do it better with the next version.
Similar to me. Previous job we tried our best to squeeze any ounce of optimisation out of it. Mainly because I was on the SEO team and we had to focus on the core web vitals. Everything was deferred and every image was optimised.
New job, we don’t even have any metrics.