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Transaction companies should not play police, in my opinion

In fact no company should play being police

This is why we have the digital market act

How are transaction offering companies not included there? Who gives them the right to choose what people consume?

Way do much centralised power

Basically a dictatorship

Fuck that

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762M

I mean, they have no problems offering transaction services to obvious scams like “find sex in your region” and other scammy find relationship websites.

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01M

This will never go away. Payment processors make life easy for most consumers, people like them. And as long as we have them, they hold all the power around how money can be used. And they will always be limited by governments and local laws.

If you don’t like the situation, use cash. If that’s too inconvenient Bitcoin is essentially your only other option.

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11M

They have the power because states gave it to them. States can very easily take it back. But they won’t because they’re corrupted assholes.

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Not even… They have the power because you gave it to them. States can take it away, but that’s worse, you don’t want that.

But it doesn’t really matter, it’s all connected. The payment processors control how money can be used and the state controls how they’re allowed to let you use it. And you let it all happen by voluntarily using a credit card.

@[email protected]
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How do you pay for a steam game without a credit card?

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Bitcoin, or maybe better the millions other way more efficient alternatives 😜

Edit: “or better” instead of “and”, as I wanted to say that nearly any other crypto coin is more efficient than bitcoin. 😁

Or i wanted to say, if you offer bitcoin payment , please offer alternative crypto coins as well…

Not so sure anymore xD

At least the main thing I wanted to say, is that bitcoin is very inefficient.

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1302M

gamers, unironically, rise up. this isn’t going to end on niche porn games

ZeroOne
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Any games with even mild nudity is next (like Nier)

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191M

Yep, then lgbtq games, then games with guns, then games with blood, so on and so on

@[email protected]
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91M

Are you sure gun and violence culture is on the chopping block? In the American market?

@[email protected]
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41M

The big payment processors won’t let you buy firearm parts

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41M

It absolutely is. We only encourage gun and violence culture in real life, especially by authoritarian figures and their representatives. Allowing such in virtual spaces where no one can actually be hurt or killed runs counter to our patriotic ideals.

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31M

It absolutely is, it’s naive to think these puritans will just decide to stop here

ssillyssadass
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Activision, EA, Ubisoft, etc. would never let that happen.

Oida Grantla
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GUNS are you nuts… Murican “morale” apostles might have infuenced the media worldwide, but if you take away guns… you lose Murica!

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Collective Shout is Australian.

Oida Grantla
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Doesn’t matter… No guns… Murican outcry! 😁

Or they mope about you not wanting their “culture” and offer to bring their democrazy…

@[email protected]
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Since this is caused by activist pressure on the payment processors, perhaps a grassroots activist campaign of our own could change their mind. Especially if we threaten to stop using their services in favor of any competitor that allows all legal purchases.

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Hopefully you’re referring to Visa/Paypal, not Itch.

One place that comes to mind is Verotel. I barely know them, but supposedly one of their star attributes is their use for adult businesses. Likely someone else knows them better.

Pup Biru
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visa have similar restrictions… the issue is that payment processor, merchant, card network, issuing bank, and acquiring bank (and a few more) are all different layers to facilitating a transaction… there are very few card networks in the world, and essentially people pay online using mostly either just visa or mastercard

technically you could probably run a site that only accepts amex, diners club, jcb, discover, etc but it really wouldn’t go well: people want to whip out their card (often their only method of online payment) and just pay and go

you’d also need to find a payment processor that would be comfortable taking on the risk of facilitating transactions around mastercard and visa… they might just cut them off from access to their network. sounds like extortion? yeah welcome to the world of banking, where in any other industry it’d be called a cartel

making things even more difficult is that by law in the US payment processors must offer at least 3 (i think? it might be 2?) “routes” (these things aren’t always straight forward - sometimes there are multiple card networks involved), so you probably have to have a pretty mature payment processor because they’d have to accept several of the alternative card networks

oh and you have to push various stats to the federal reserve which is a massive back and forth bureaucratic challenge even above the technical challenge of interfacing with some pretty awful systems. it often takes over a year to get things sorted unless you’re a “too big to fail” type customer

there are a buuuuunch of other spanners that get thrown into the works, but i’m not sure where the NDA line hits so i’m gonna just leave it there and say trust me, payment processing (distinct from payment gateway) is an absolute nightmare mess

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I’m not sure that works, like on a purely game theory level. If gamers start to apply pressure, threaten to stop buying games, the stores need to make a choice:

A. Risk facing the wrath of the gamers, sales are likely to drop. Possibly by a lot, perhaps 15-20%. That could keep up for months before stabilizing.

B. Risk facing the wrath of the payment processors, credit card sales will stop immediately, only alternative payment types get through. Sales drop by 80% overnight, over time some users will seek alternative payment methods, possibly resulting in only 50% less revenue than expected…

While both of those options are bad, one of them is totally fatal to their business.

Those numbers are of course only speculation, but that’s my best guess.

@[email protected]
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61M

I meant pressing the payment processors, like those prude activists are.

skulblaka
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I find it offensive that the only effective way to combat this is to fight fire with fire and also make a big bitchy noise about this like the conservatives love to do. I have better things I would rather be doing with my life. But such are the times we live in I suppose.

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In the short term, I think that collectively being Karens about it would be able to reverse the pressure, by steering the monopolists away from oppressing us. Because they are mainly motivated by money.

In the long term, take away their monopoly power.

@[email protected]
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It’s already expanded. It started as going after “rape and incest” but now it’s all adult games. But a bunch of lgbtq games have already gotten hit. I am beyond furious.

Gloomy
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Shit. Would you provide a source please?

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i don’t know if any source has caught up yet, but a few days ago it was indeed just taboo kink games that were being targeted, now it seems all of itch.ios NSFW games are disappearing

NιƙƙιDιɱҽʂ
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I think all games being hit is a temporary measure while they get some sort of new process in place. We’ll see where things land.

Either way, card processing companies shouldn’t be dictating what kind of art consumers can consume, even if I don’t personally agree with the content of some of the worst offenders. If it’s not outright illegal, they can fuck off.

@[email protected]
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You’re being too gracious. These companies could have given itch.io enough time to classify the games properly, but they didn’t.

NιƙƙιDιɱҽʂ
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Oh for sure, fuck these companies. I’m just saying don’t take it out on Itch.io and their current scorched earth approach, their hands are tied.

@[email protected]
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31M

Isnt that addressed in the post?

@[email protected]
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41M

Here’s one example I came across on Bluesky

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Direct link to the game because the creator restricted who can view their posts on Bsky. Only viewable via a link or from their profile now, searching the name only returns a bunch of other dress-up games, but not this one, presumably because of the „Transgender“ tag.

Gloomy
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Thanks for the context. Might have been caught up in the crossfire, but very worrying indeed.

ssillyssadass
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It’s gonna stop once they hit a category that includes big AAA games. Once they start cutting into the revenue of Call of Duty or Assassin’s Creed the big developers should take a stance.

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I’ve already seen a pretty big YouTuber cover that they are targeting GTA 6 now. It was either moistcritical or mudahar

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Neighbors being kidnapped: I sleep

Taking my fetish games: Real Shit

@[email protected]
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11M

most of the world isn’t american. we can’t do anything about your government

@[email protected]
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01M

Capitalism is a global problem, its not contained to america. Replace neighbors being kidnapped with which ever country you’re in supporting a genocide and it still fits, and is likely accurate unless you’re like in Yemen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melinda_Tankard_Reist?wprov=sfla1

Collective Shout. Thanks to itch.io for naming them. TIL

Reist reviewed the controversial Netflix film Cuties (2020) for both her ABC Religion & Ethics column[20] and for the Christian newspaper Eternity.[21] She described the film as “a social critique on what happens when we allow misogynistic, violent, exhibitionist internet culture to ravage girls – training them to wield their immature bodies as currency.”[21] Reist related the film to the activism of Collective Shout: “In the past 10 years at Collective Shout, we have met many girls this age, who have felt the same pressures. Some have taken inappropriate pics and shared them, sexualising themselves either out of a sense of obligation, or because they have believed the lie that self-objectification is empowering or liberating.”[21] However, regarding certain scenes in the film, she wrote that “the complexity here is that in trying to make a serious ethical point about girls and sexuality, the girls may have been used unwittingly — but still inappropriately — to a noble end. The scene could have been filmed differently[.]”[20]

Yeah. As a society we seriously need to get on the same page about morality, but for my money it can’t come from a religious group tinkering with the beating heart of commerce. They may have points to make but it’s fruit of the poisoned tree.

Fontasia
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My favourite fact is she thinks decriminalising sex work will lead to more sex trafficing.

Such wisdom and vision, we should let these people have power over payment processors

Booboofinger
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Stuff like this is the strongest argument for a decentralized payment option. Hopefully some day crypto will not be so much a tool of monetary speculation and we can use it for that without having to have the same experience as the guy who bought a pizza with Bitcoin.

That’s what I always wanted “DeFi” to be, a systematic replacement for the legions of evil old banks who have happily collaborated with the worst institutions of the last several centuries.

@[email protected]
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Damn, Rupert Murdoch and now this asshole. Australia has a monopoly on ruining media, lol.

redwattlebird
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You can thank Advance Australia for that. Huge think tank that likely bank rolls all this nonsense and more.

Also, down with Collective Shout! As someone who suffered child abuse, I condemn these cookers crusading under the guise of child protection. FFS, they were patting themselves on the back for stopping sales of plastic heads on Temu.

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If it’s any consolation, I’m sure the American versions (Focus on the family, alliance defending freedom) are right there with them.

Props to them for figuring out a real way of imposing colonialism on impoverished countries and former colonies alike. Now their ideas and laws are spreading worldwide, like someone with diseases shitting into the local water supply. Ugh.

I have a terrible feeling that the people they duped won’t figure this out for 30 years or more, with some trappings lasting for 50+ years.

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Wow, good to learn about the conservative christian, anti-abortion, “radical feminist”.

@[email protected]
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Here’s a different comment to avoid the other stupid one. Feminist support equal rights and freedom.

ZeroOne
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Well They ARE feminists.

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👍

ZeroOne
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It’s damn clear that you’re gullible. So when the mask innevitably slips that feminists were always right-wing fascists, you scapegoat someone else.

@[email protected]
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Wow wow, hang on, I think I misunderstood your comment.

I agree with you. Fuck feminists. Someone just posted a picture calling for the death of all men due to catcalling and it was getting upvoted.

FUCK THAT.

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49718552

This bullshit needs to stop.

ZeroOne
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Are you trolling me ?

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The post I sent is real, isn’t it? I despise misandrists.

I even removed my original reply to you because I misinterpreted your comment.

I would appreciate if you edited yours too. I get it. I agree.

@[email protected]
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221M

I get not liking a game about SA and incest, but how about just not play that game?

ZeroOne
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Reminder they do nohing about all thise fujoshi comics which has rape & incest. They like cuties too. So the goal was destroying men"s outlet for sexual pleasure.

Notice they didn’t go after onlyfans

ZeroOne
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“They” here is CollectiveShout & they (as in Payment Processors) reversed the ban quickly (Because it affected women). Well Not in this case, this group also campaigned to deny SnoopDogg & Eminem Visas.

JackbyDev
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I thought it was obvious you meant Collective Shout.

@[email protected]
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161M

My biggest issue with this situation is: if they can get away with getting games they don’t like being delisted, where does it end? Delisting books with themes or authors they don’t like? Banning the sale of alcohol and cigarettes?

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21M

Honestly haven’t thought so far. But Media lacks that, as almost everything is clickbait.

And you got a point. There is questionable stuff. But killing off a whole area is like a bit shot on a small bird

ssillyssadass
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Can we crowdfund a big lawsuit against those responsible for this?

@[email protected]
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141M

Against banks? I love the enthusiasm but this is not the way. Banks as a whole have many of the best lawyers in the game on retainer (possession is 9/10ths of the law, and this industry banks on that and make bank.) The best crowdfunding campaign in history* is 800 million. The banks would be willing to spend at least that in their own defence.

*not including investments (nor blockchain)

Plus, a progressive lawsuit in this environment? Might backfire spectacularly - right now banks are cautiously picking on ‘safe’ targets. But with a green light from the supreme court the banks could go full Nazi. Yeah - there’s nothing good I can reasonably expect here.

@[email protected]
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21M

Does it have to be a lawsuit? Can it be a big guillotine instead?

@[email protected]
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61M

Or use cryptocurrency more

@[email protected]
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161M

Why are they doing a comprehensive audit on the content and not doing a comprehensive audit on new payment providers? I sure would be

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11M

Because they would basically die off without the credit card processors, I assume.

@[email protected]
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51M

Yeah so they should shop around now that theirs seems to be problematic

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What I meant is that simply excluding Mastercard and Visa would turn away tons of sales and donations, even if they worked with every other payment processor on the planet at once.

They… could. But it would hurt, maybe even kill Itch.

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Miserable fuckers, the whole lot of puritans…

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312M

Holy fuck why did Collective Shout go full nuclear and go behind the platforms’ back and straight to the payment processors. Like they could have at least talk to the Itch.io people.

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If they wanted any games banned all they had to do was talk to the Office of Film and Literature Classification (OFLC) in Australia, where they’re based. Any of the games listed would have likely been added to the ‘Refused Classification’ list and thereby banned from sale and import in Australia. If they wanted them pulled from Steam or Itch entirely they could have talked to those platforms.

But they didn’t want to raise objections through appropriate preexisting channels, they wanted to push their Christian-based ideology on the whole world by going Karen on the social media of all the payment processors.

ushmel
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lol they’re Australian? Jfc

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Collective shout finacials
year: 2024
revenue: 458043
employee_expenses: 107000
other_expenses: 215488
net_surplus: 135555
employees: 
  total_fte: 2
  full_time: 0
  part_time: 1
  casual: 4
volunteers: 15
donations_and_bequests: 389800
government_grants: 0
commercial_income: 0
expense_to_revenue_ratio: "70.4%"
average_expense_per_employee: 39400

Leadership
- name: Melinda Tankard Reist
  role: Founder, Movement Director
  public_socials:
    - Twitter: @MelTankardReist
    - Instagram: @collective.shout
  public_email_address: Not publicly listed
  salary: Not publicly listed

- name: Caitlin Roper
  role: Campaigns Manager
  public_socials:
    - Instagram: @collective.shout
  public_email_address: Not publicly listed
  salary: Not publicly listed

- name: Renee Chopping
  role: Campaigns Strategy
  public_socials:
    - LinkedIn
  public_email_address: r******@collectiveshout.org
  salary: Not publicly listed

- name: Lyn Swanson Kennedy
  role: Campaigns Strategy
  public_socials:
    - Instagram: @collective.shout
  public_email_address: Not publicly listed
  salary: Not publicly listed

- name: Coralie Alison
  role: Movement Operations Manager
  public_socials:
    - Twitter: @CoralieAlison
    - Instagram: @collective.shout
  public_email_address: Not publicly listed
  salary: Not publicly listed
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This is exactly like the pearl-clutching we had back in the 1980’s around D&D and music lyrics. At least we moved the goalpost from satanic panic and thinly-veiled racism, over to “art that features sexual expression I don’t understand.”

If history is any indicator, their actions are only going to increase awareness of this kind of stuff.

@[email protected]
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Are we still doing phrasing also thank god they’re not coming for the ultra violence and graphic scenes of bodily dismemberment

@[email protected]
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How do platforms like Patreon and OnlyFans circumvent this? I know OF had issues with payment processors in the past but I’m not sure what changes they implemented to stay compliant. There must be some way for itch.io to keep these things on their platform while not pissing off the payment processors (who can go fuck themselves btw, this is completely unnecessary)

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152M

Porn sites are categorized as high risk at these payment processors. So probably itch has to fall into the high risk category and incur higher fees or remove all porn content. If you fall into the high risk category the payment platform will probably audit you more often and thus charge higher fees.

OF probably had these same issues because they didn’t start as a porn site.

Frezik
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I don’t think OnlyFans had to do much of anything in the end. There was just enough media stink about it to make it go away.

Credit card companies don’t have to make a consistently applied set of rules the way a government of laws does. They can make it all up for each individual site if they wish. Capitalism can create a censorship regime that’s stronger than nominally democratic governments are willing to do.

Kairos
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I don’t get it. Do payment processors want less money? Do they hate being entrenched and bringing in revenue just for existing? Do they want us to try and find alternatives to them?

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this bullshit is surely coming from the recently intensifying family friendlinessification of the internet, but why the fuck do payment processors care? i have no idea. are they taking a cut of advertising revenue? do all ceos just want to appear as massive prudes? do they see children as an untapped market to exploit? or maybe they’re just fucking stupid? what is actually going on

Frezik
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Capitalism is creating a level of censorship that exceeded what the US government was ever able to do after the Warren court. Parts of this have been there for a long time. You can drop f-bombs on cable TV all you like; the FCC can’t do anything about it since it’s not over public airwaves. They generally don’t do that, because advertisers don’t like it. Capitalism set the rule, not the government.

YouTube has put this idea into overdrive. You can’t make a straightforward, monetized video about the Holocaust anymore, because the language you would have to use would violate YouTube’s written and unwritten rules. Meanwhile, actual fucking Nazis have had little issue using YouTube to spread their bullshit.

Credit card companies have had issues with porn sites in terms of fraud reporting. Not necessarily because of actual fraud–if the site you use is under CCbill, it’s fine–but because some guy’s spouse sees the card transactions, asks what this particular line is for, and he lies and says it’s probably fraud and he’ll call it in. Get more than a few of those, and the processor will always be flagged for review.

They do outright stop some of the more fringe porn. Bree Mills (of Adulttime) has said that they get limited by the credit card industry far more than the government. All the faux-incest videos go out of their way to mention in dialog that everyone is a step family and over 18. You won’t find scat on Kink.com, again because their payment processor won’t allow it.

That’s been the situation for a few decades, but it has gone beyond that in the last few years. They tried it on OnlyFans, and the company maneuvered things to show why that’s an incredibly bad idea, and then the card companies backed down. But they’re trying again elsewhere, and they’re starting to be successful. I severely doubt they had any significant fraud issues on Steam or itch.io, NSFW items or otherwise.

Ultimately, this stuff is a tiny slice of their revenue. If they want to shut it all down on a moral crusade, they will barely notice the hit to their numbers.

On a side note, I’d like the advocate that you should pay for porn if it’s within your means. You’ll often find better quality stuff at sites that properly run their sets with consent. If you like queer porn or unconventional body types, there are a lot of sites for that which just don’t show up on PornHub.

ZeroOne
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It’s all about misandry (attacking men’s enjoyment), These are all male-dominated medias, but they’re (as in CollectiveShout) OK with cuties.

Kilgore Trout
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Maybe from Collective Shout, but what about Visa and Mastercard?

ZeroOne
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Collective Shout has their people within those organizations, you don’t acquire this level of power without networking & organization.

@[email protected]
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They make money hand over first for doing practically nothing… They’re perfectly happy with their current situation and the most important thing to them right now is not rocking the boat.

𝔼𝕩𝕦𝕤𝕚𝕒
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I think someone once told me its about charge backs. People will pay up for hours and hours of content (more for addicts) and then issue a chargeback, or otherwise say their card was stolen (how dare you insinuate I’m into that fetish! Type shit) and because there is no physical product to seize, the company is left with repeatedly eating investigation costs into fraudulent porn addicts.

E: I’m not judging anyone’s porn content, idgaf what you smack or flick to. Merely an observation of people not realizing how much they will charge their CC until statement time, and freak out and then chargeback, making the company susceptible to puritanical influence because “those damn porn users” keep costing the company money.

@[email protected]
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Why would a campaign group have any influence over that?

@[email protected]
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Mutualism? The group wants some puritanical bullshit and knows a tactic to make other services comply

Backpack4317
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deleted by creator

@[email protected]
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I mean, crypto is still not the answer so long as it is functionally a speculative asset even after all the proof efficiency improvements… Also it still has centralized points which keyholders could easily leverage.

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All my homies hate Collective Shout

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This community is mostly for discussion and news. Remember to search for the thing you’re submitting before posting to see if it’s already been posted.

We want to keep the quality of posts high. Therefore, memes, funny videos, low-effort posts and reposts are not allowed. We prohibit giveaways because we cannot be sure that the person holding the giveaway will actually do what they promise.

5. Mark Spoilers and NSFW

Make sure to mark your stuff or it may be removed.

No one wants to be spoiled. Therefore, always mark spoilers. Similarly mark NSFW, in case anyone is browsing in a public space or at work.

6. No linking to piracy

Don’t share it here, there are other places to find it. Discussion of piracy is fine.

We don’t want us moderators or the admins of lemmy.world to get in trouble for linking to piracy. Therefore, any link to piracy will be removed. Discussion of it is of course allowed.

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