Keep in mind the Charlottesville protest was organized in part on discord. Not saying that’s a good reason to give up privacy, but its not just good faith actors using it. Also telling parents to do better doesn’t exactly stop grooming and abuse of minors overnight.
Are you talking about Iran? That happened over Discord? Is it possible Discord is being forced to do this by Don the Demented’s admin? Might be banking on complying and then seuing for damages down the road.
It sucks that many projects that I am interested in, such as Touhoumon Puppet Dance Encore and assorted hentai projects that are on the platform. For now, I put up with it - but I am very much hoping alternatives are adopted by creators.
I’m worried about the one open source porn game that’s been slowly getting revived over the years. This will probably kill it as the only dev activity was in the discord.
Maybe this bullshit will be the spark needed to move us all off Discord. It’s fine for voice-chat in games, don’t get me wrong, but I HATE how its replaced forums/wikis for so many games/mods/etc. Searching disparate Discord servers is like looking for a nonferrous straw-colored needle in a haystack.
Worse, it also makes it seem like developer support that is provided through Discord needs to be always on/always available since you can be pinged on Discord 24 hours a day. Why would you do that yourself, I don’t know. At least with forums you can choose to respond on your own time frame and people have less recourse to act like you should be around and available. It’s just asking for higher demand from the userbase since you’re chatting with them in real-time, they begin to expect real-time fast responses.
What’s wrong with good old fashioned data base backed message forums? There are so many implementations available, I’m sure many are FOSS, and I’m sure there’s managed solutions as well. It’s a mature, tested, rock solid reliable technology that has existed pretty much since the inception of the internet, and can be easily incorporated into other tools and workflows - because there is 40+ years of development work with the concept.
Forums are great for being forums. Real-time instant messaging, voice chat, video chat, and screen sharing are all a very different use-case. They’re two entirely separate products, and comparing them is apples and oranges. People are looking to replace Discord with Discord-like services, because forums don’t fucking do what Discord does.
The big problem (and the reason everyone seems to compare the two) is that Discord started eating forums, as companies realized it was easier to create a Discord server instead of creating (and hosting, and maintaining) a support forum. And that’s a perfectly valid complaint. But that doesn’t mean forums are a valid replacement for Discord.
He is talking about forums because the main issue with discord is that it’s cut from the rest of the internet so nothing is indexed and a lot of platforms and services use discord like a forum (it isn’t).
No one wants our conversations indexed, and discord shouldn’t be a forum.
I mean, I share the complaint of Discord having tons of unindexable knowledge locked away in it, but forums are not good replacement for my friend group. So yeah we kinda want a Discord alternative specifically.
Obviously the problem isn’t you and your friends, the problems is services that use discord like it’s a forum, dispatcharr for example “oh do you want support? Join our discord”. Fine, I’ll figure it out myself.
My group of friends, like yours, we have a discord server with 9 channels, more than half aren’t used, and one of the channels is to share links.
I tried Mumble and Teamspeak in the past and it’s pretty far from the same level of comfort.
Don’t take that the wrong way though, I’m all for supporting open alternatives, I’m just saying you have to think about the features of the alternatives too.
I just saw something about Stoat.chat which seems like a good open source software for that application but a lot of people will have to bear the cost of self hosting these servers.
I know I will think carefully before slamming the door on discord.
Well yes, I would say it’s very much an integral part of my social life.
I spend a lot of time with my gamer friends and it revolves around our discord servers.
We even have a discord servers dedicated to our role play sessions.
IMHO Discord is a bit more than just a voice chat app. It’s also rooms with persistant chats. It’s the ability to share media etc.
Also their noise reduction tech is top notch.
I knew when I got in that it would be another “Gmail” for me. It’s great but you have to give a bit of your soul to it and I knew it would enshitify eventually.
I don’t know what problems you found, but the biggest bugs I encountered in past years seem to be fixed now, at least on recent clients. (Element X is recent, and I’ve seen praise for FluffyChat.)
Matrix for text and Mumble for voice works well for me.
Fair enough, while I use discord it is not as big a part of my social life as it is for you. I only have a few servers I am in, and even then I am only active part of the time and not a “super user” by any means.
That is the unfortunate thing about nearly every app/website/software that the enshittification happens sooner than we would like. I’m hoping that this is a bigger non-issue than what it seems based on the announcement, and even then, only time will tell.
For context my country (France) is trying to pass a law that forbids the use of social networks to users younger than 15yo. So I suppose this move from Discord is partly due to that.
Now that being said I would hope the verification process will have much more scrutiny in Europe than it would in the US.
I would definitely not be happy about it but if they are not allowed to keep any of the verification data afterwards it could be “acceptable”. But if I have the feeling they keep any data I will actively look into building a Stoat instance and try the even harder task of convincing my friends to switch over.
Didn’t have much of an aim beyond trying to cook it up from scratch as a personal research project. That includes the protocol, since I’m handling priv/pub keypairs in a creative way to facilitate both encryption and user identity verification.
Voice chat isn’t inherently costly to host, usually the server acts as a broker and then people connect P2P. Do you remember jitsi? It was used as an alternative to zoom during covid, it was a webpage like Google meet where you opened a room, and people joined with the link. Actually under the good the first one that joined the room acted as a host so all voice communications never reached jitsi’s servers.
Jitsi still exists btw, although I understand that a more integrated solution like matrix is preferable. Matrix IS the federated discord-like solution, although last time I read about it it had some issues with scalability and the typical foss Dev drama.
No. Recently I played a bit using a friends mumble server. And it’s a friend that is already privacy conscious. But these friends are not the norm. They are the exception.
Interesting to see Teamspeak evolved but still you have to pay to host a server so that’s a huge difference.
Have they finally released screen sharing in ts6? I gotta say that the development of that project is pretty comical. Radio silence with the only communication being the community manager shitting on discord every other day while giving no updates on their own product.
I haven’t followed the development communication much, but yes, screen sharing works now. It wasn’t working on wayland like 8mo ago, but I tried again a month ago and it’s now working.
I’ll swap to a shared calendar and any other voice chat software. Sure I can’t post on those but that’s why we also have a group chat for the different gaming groups I’m in.
I’m on discord for piracy and modding. Sure over the years i joined a few other channels. But most foss adjacent channels have matrix bridges. idgaf. If servers required my phone number i always just left the server. Discord wont get shit.
Additionally, Discord will implement its age inference model, a new system that runs in the background to help determine whether an account belongs to an adult
I deleted my account after reading the article they officially released…Chat apps won’t get my phone number or ID, they get hacked and compromised too frequently for me to trust it. It’s total bullshit that they are pushing this shit on the world after trialing it in the UK and Australia. Discord can get fucked, it will suck that I can’t follow the development of games that rely on Discord instead of forums or proper fucking documentation sites. Hopefully, more indies will stop relying on Discord (it’s a rotten crutch) and go back to utilizing Forums in general!
This project looks interesting, i might try it. As i undesrtand, its designed around all of the basic discord features, and nothing else that nobody asked for.
The cool thing about being foss project, is if the developers for some reason become too greedy (lets be real, its true for foss), the next exact second there will be a new fork created, a new team formed, a new server hosted, and all of the users will move to it instantly.
The only way to get around this would be to verify your age, which Discord says can be accomplished in one of two ways. The first is to “submit a form of identification” to Discord vendors (i.e. scan your physical ID), or to use “facial age estimation.” Discord says that the latter process happens fully on-device, as “video selfies for facial age estimation never leave a user’s device.” For ID scans, Discord says that documents “are deleted quickly.”
Between the features that are limiting being almost entirely things I don’t want anyway (random friend invites are literally just fucking scams and ads to begin with), and the entire process being completed on-device… What is this, some slow news day? Everyone is losing their minds about this being some insane overstep like Discord is asking for a blood sample, or even a photo of your driver’s license.
Don’t get me wrong, fuck this age verification nonsense, but it’s pretty clear this is some very specific government regulatory appeasement where Discord is attempting to avoid culpability for holding data at basically every joint possible. They already have the useful, farmable data, like geolocation, age/gender demographics and interests. They don’t want our government ID. They only want a “yes” or “no” from their app.
Must be a slow news day. Everyone’s blowing this up in headlines for cheap clicks.
I might consider the facial verification thing if someone fulfills a security audit that both verifies the photo is never sent, encrypted or not, and it does not stay on the device’s drive.
But yeah, part of me hopes some number of privacy focused companies will just abandon business in these locations and claim “It’s only a matter of time before they reverse course for security failures, we will just wait until then.”
Don’t get me wrong, fuck this age verification nonsense, but it’s pretty clear this is some very specific government regulatory appeasement where Discord is attempting to avoid culpability for holding data at basically every joint possible.
That’s 100% what it is. It also sincerely makes me not want to use Discord, because even if this is what governments want, it’s extremely bad for users.
I’m waiting for some government to outlaw collecting the information in general outside of official government agencies. I would love to see big tech squirm as they try to figure out a valid way to harvest the data in one country, but prevent it in another.
Honestly it sounds like an amazing way to rack of fine money due to violation notices.
That’s fine if that’s your personal response. This still feels like a misdirected and ultimately useless response though.
This is a government-created problem. Are we expecting widespread boycotts of Discord to change the government’s mind? Of course not.
If it’s extremely bad for users, then users need to change their government. Yeah, yeah, I know the excuses for not doing that, they don’t listen, we are all powerless, it is the way it is, yadda yadda. It’s a lie. We are powerful, they want us feeling powerless so we can’t challenge them. Fuck that, challenge them. Government exists to represent us, it can exist in perpetuity only with our active and ongoing consent and participation. If people in totalitarian countries can overthrow their governments, so can we, we don’t have to do it overnight, we don’t have to do it over this one single isolated issue, but we can at least start working against them, eroding the structures that support them. Fuck governments like these, figure out ways to twist their arm, make things more difficult for them, and eventually, if we keep at it, we’ll get what we want. We hold the power here, not them. We decide what kind of society we want to live in. We need to stop abdicating our responsibilities as citizens and actively fight against this shit.
By all means, challenge your government, but I’m not going to upload my ID to a database to use Discord. I can self host a thing that will accomplish the same goals without doing something that stupid.
That’s fine, and I hate Discord’s general situation too, and I can’t wait for a properly federated self-hostable open source alternative to take off. But it just seems a bit knee-jerk or straw that broke the camel’s back to throw Discord under the bus specifically for this. To be clear, you don’t actually need to provide ID, you can either continue using a limited account (it’s barely limited at all in any serious way unless you’re using Discord for NSFW stuff) or you can attempt to validate your face with a camera instead, which supposedly happens completely on-device. Either one is a totally reasonable alternative.
If you believe that photo validation lives entirely on your device, you might be surprised by how many times the tech industry straight up lies about this kind of stuff, but I don’t trust that for a minute.
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They got scared when a full revolution started in discord channels.
Anyone have a FOSS with screen share / group service?
Interested as well.
I need to move some D&D games to another platform.
Keep in mind the Charlottesville protest was organized in part on discord. Not saying that’s a good reason to give up privacy, but its not just good faith actors using it. Also telling parents to do better doesn’t exactly stop grooming and abuse of minors overnight.
I would also like to know if stoat offers screen sharing or if it’s just calls and video calls
Are you talking about Iran? That happened over Discord? Is it possible Discord is being forced to do this by Don the Demented’s admin? Might be banking on complying and then seuing for damages down the road.
Nepal or something wasn’t it?
Oooh, right. Yeah.
I will use AI image generation, such as “Thispersondoesnotexist”. They can have an imaginary face for their data brokers.
Cool. I’m getting off it so that they don’t think doing shit like this is okay
It sucks that many projects that I am interested in, such as Touhoumon Puppet Dance Encore and assorted hentai projects that are on the platform. For now, I put up with it - but I am very much hoping alternatives are adopted by creators.
I’m worried about the one open source porn game that’s been slowly getting revived over the years. This will probably kill it as the only dev activity was in the discord.
Setting up an unofficial mirror is an option
Well, looks like I’m leaving discord.
@Oni_eyes @criss_cross
Yeah its kinda terrible
Maybe this bullshit will be the spark needed to move us all off Discord. It’s fine for voice-chat in games, don’t get me wrong, but I HATE how its replaced forums/wikis for so many games/mods/etc. Searching disparate Discord servers is like looking for a nonferrous straw-colored needle in a haystack.
Worse, it also makes it seem like developer support that is provided through Discord needs to be always on/always available since you can be pinged on Discord 24 hours a day. Why would you do that yourself, I don’t know. At least with forums you can choose to respond on your own time frame and people have less recourse to act like you should be around and available. It’s just asking for higher demand from the userbase since you’re chatting with them in real-time, they begin to expect real-time fast responses.
I have just been using signal. Works fine.
People are already looking to migrate to checks notes apps exactly like discord.
What’s wrong with good old fashioned data base backed message forums? There are so many implementations available, I’m sure many are FOSS, and I’m sure there’s managed solutions as well. It’s a mature, tested, rock solid reliable technology that has existed pretty much since the inception of the internet, and can be easily incorporated into other tools and workflows - because there is 40+ years of development work with the concept.
Seriously, why?
Forums are great for being forums. Real-time instant messaging, voice chat, video chat, and screen sharing are all a very different use-case. They’re two entirely separate products, and comparing them is apples and oranges. People are looking to replace Discord with Discord-like services, because forums don’t fucking do what Discord does.
The big problem (and the reason everyone seems to compare the two) is that Discord started eating forums, as companies realized it was easier to create a Discord server instead of creating (and hosting, and maintaining) a support forum. And that’s a perfectly valid complaint. But that doesn’t mean forums are a valid replacement for Discord.
He is talking about forums because the main issue with discord is that it’s cut from the rest of the internet so nothing is indexed and a lot of platforms and services use discord like a forum (it isn’t).
No one wants our conversations indexed, and discord shouldn’t be a forum.
Exactly my point - And public help forums should be indexed, and should not be on Discord.
It is not comparing apples to oranges, there are many companies that use Discord as a direct replacement for help forums or product wikis.
Read the rest of my comment.
I’ve already read your whole comment. It’s not comparing apples to oranges.
I mean, I share the complaint of Discord having tons of unindexable knowledge locked away in it, but forums are not good replacement for my friend group. So yeah we kinda want a Discord alternative specifically.
Matrix is great for this. Fluffy chat is a client that even uses jitsi for video chats
Does it work on Linux?
I found it on linux
For others who are interested:
https://matrix.org/ecosystem/clients/
Wire exists.
Obviously the problem isn’t you and your friends, the problems is services that use discord like it’s a forum, dispatcharr for example “oh do you want support? Join our discord”. Fine, I’ll figure it out myself.
My group of friends, like yours, we have a discord server with 9 channels, more than half aren’t used, and one of the channels is to share links.
[cries]
Agreed. As if every company just having a subreddit wasn’t bad enough.
Sure.
But what are you replacing it with ?
I tried Mumble and Teamspeak in the past and it’s pretty far from the same level of comfort.
Don’t take that the wrong way though, I’m all for supporting open alternatives, I’m just saying you have to think about the features of the alternatives too.
I just saw something about Stoat.chat which seems like a good open source software for that application but a lot of people will have to bear the cost of self hosting these servers.
I know I will think carefully before slamming the door on discord.
Stoat looks promising, open source
https://stoat.chat/download
They won’t even send a verification email to my gmail account so I can sign up.
They were suffering with email issues due to the “hug of death” effect, try again now maybe it’ll work
Same :)
The thing is do you even need to replace it?
Yes, many of my childhood best friends live a 9 hour flight away.
Well yes, I would say it’s very much an integral part of my social life.
I spend a lot of time with my gamer friends and it revolves around our discord servers.
We even have a discord servers dedicated to our role play sessions.
IMHO Discord is a bit more than just a voice chat app. It’s also rooms with persistant chats. It’s the ability to share media etc.
Also their noise reduction tech is top notch.
I knew when I got in that it would be another “Gmail” for me. It’s great but you have to give a bit of your soul to it and I knew it would enshitify eventually.
I see luck with “combos”
XMPP + Mumble is a common one. The room is on XMPP, some users are in a mumble server with info in the topic.
Matrix is buggy and doesn’t scale imo, it isn’t a sustainable alternative. Stoat looks like a great option and there are lots of open instances.
I don’t know what problems you found, but the biggest bugs I encountered in past years seem to be fixed now, at least on recent clients. (Element X is recent, and I’ve seen praise for FluffyChat.)
Matrix for text and Mumble for voice works well for me.
Fair enough, while I use discord it is not as big a part of my social life as it is for you. I only have a few servers I am in, and even then I am only active part of the time and not a “super user” by any means.
That is the unfortunate thing about nearly every app/website/software that the enshittification happens sooner than we would like. I’m hoping that this is a bigger non-issue than what it seems based on the announcement, and even then, only time will tell.
For context my country (France) is trying to pass a law that forbids the use of social networks to users younger than 15yo. So I suppose this move from Discord is partly due to that.
Now that being said I would hope the verification process will have much more scrutiny in Europe than it would in the US.
I would definitely not be happy about it but if they are not allowed to keep any of the verification data afterwards it could be “acceptable”. But if I have the feeling they keep any data I will actively look into building a Stoat instance and try the even harder task of convincing my friends to switch over.
I did start a projects aiming to be a more decentralized/federated discord more akin to how IRC was back in the day. Time to revisit it, it seems.
A federation based discord would be amazing !
But still that’s a big challenge as voice chat will be costly to host.
Also out of curiosity do you aim for something that would connect through the fediverse ?
Didn’t have much of an aim beyond trying to cook it up from scratch as a personal research project. That includes the protocol, since I’m handling priv/pub keypairs in a creative way to facilitate both encryption and user identity verification.
Voice chat isn’t inherently costly to host, usually the server acts as a broker and then people connect P2P. Do you remember jitsi? It was used as an alternative to zoom during covid, it was a webpage like Google meet where you opened a room, and people joined with the link. Actually under the good the first one that joined the room acted as a host so all voice communications never reached jitsi’s servers.
Jitsi still exists btw, although I understand that a more integrated solution like matrix is preferable. Matrix IS the federated discord-like solution, although last time I read about it it had some issues with scalability and the typical foss Dev drama.
Were you trying Teamspeak 6? The UI is different, but the functionality is on par I believe. Not open source, but at least you can self-host.
No. Recently I played a bit using a friends mumble server. And it’s a friend that is already privacy conscious. But these friends are not the norm. They are the exception.
Interesting to see Teamspeak evolved but still you have to pay to host a server so that’s a huge difference.
I haven’t tried mumble yet.
You pay for the hosting resources yes, but you can host it anywhere. I’ve been playing around with it using a docker instance in my homelab.
Have they finally released screen sharing in ts6? I gotta say that the development of that project is pretty comical. Radio silence with the only communication being the community manager shitting on discord every other day while giving no updates on their own product.
Weird vibes.
I haven’t followed the development communication much, but yes, screen sharing works now. It wasn’t working on wayland like 8mo ago, but I tried again a month ago and it’s now working.
You can selfhost TS6 now? O:
Sure can
I’ll swap to a shared calendar and any other voice chat software. Sure I can’t post on those but that’s why we also have a group chat for the different gaming groups I’m in.
I’m on discord for piracy and modding. Sure over the years i joined a few other channels. But most foss adjacent channels have matrix bridges. idgaf. If servers required my phone number i always just left the server. Discord wont get shit.
I would barely be okay with a bank or government website asking for this information, I sure as shit would not give it to a fucking chat app.
from the official release.
Sounds like creepy spyware
it only sounds like that, because it is. :/
I wonder if it’ll function like Twitch where you can get tons of people banned all at once by getting them to say they’re under 13.
That happened to me a long while ago. before all this.
For those looking for an alternative, try stoat.chat or matrix
I deleted my account after reading the article they officially released…Chat apps won’t get my phone number or ID, they get hacked and compromised too frequently for me to trust it. It’s total bullshit that they are pushing this shit on the world after trialing it in the UK and Australia. Discord can get fucked, it will suck that I can’t follow the development of games that rely on Discord instead of forums or proper fucking documentation sites. Hopefully, more indies will stop relying on Discord (it’s a rotten crutch) and go back to utilizing Forums in general!
Teamspeak and Vent, now is your time to shine.
Discord said I’m certified teen full rizz all drip fr what’s up 67ers?
That’s cap.
frfr on god
Is this Belter speak?
Stoat it is lol (https://stoat.chat)
This project looks interesting, i might try it. As i undesrtand, its designed around all of the basic discord features, and nothing else that nobody asked for.
The cool thing about being foss project, is if the developers for some reason become too greedy (lets be real, its true for foss), the next exact second there will be a new fork created, a new team formed, a new server hosted, and all of the users will move to it instantly.
Between the features that are limiting being almost entirely things I don’t want anyway (random friend invites are literally just fucking scams and ads to begin with), and the entire process being completed on-device… What is this, some slow news day? Everyone is losing their minds about this being some insane overstep like Discord is asking for a blood sample, or even a photo of your driver’s license.
Don’t get me wrong, fuck this age verification nonsense, but it’s pretty clear this is some very specific government regulatory appeasement where Discord is attempting to avoid culpability for holding data at basically every joint possible. They already have the useful, farmable data, like geolocation, age/gender demographics and interests. They don’t want our government ID. They only want a “yes” or “no” from their app.
Must be a slow news day. Everyone’s blowing this up in headlines for cheap clicks.
I might consider the facial verification thing if someone fulfills a security audit that both verifies the photo is never sent, encrypted or not, and it does not stay on the device’s drive.
But yeah, part of me hopes some number of privacy focused companies will just abandon business in these locations and claim “It’s only a matter of time before they reverse course for security failures, we will just wait until then.”
That’s 100% what it is. It also sincerely makes me not want to use Discord, because even if this is what governments want, it’s extremely bad for users.
I’m waiting for some government to outlaw collecting the information in general outside of official government agencies. I would love to see big tech squirm as they try to figure out a valid way to harvest the data in one country, but prevent it in another.
Honestly it sounds like an amazing way to rack of fine money due to violation notices.
That’s fine if that’s your personal response. This still feels like a misdirected and ultimately useless response though.
This is a government-created problem. Are we expecting widespread boycotts of Discord to change the government’s mind? Of course not.
If it’s extremely bad for users, then users need to change their government. Yeah, yeah, I know the excuses for not doing that, they don’t listen, we are all powerless, it is the way it is, yadda yadda. It’s a lie. We are powerful, they want us feeling powerless so we can’t challenge them. Fuck that, challenge them. Government exists to represent us, it can exist in perpetuity only with our active and ongoing consent and participation. If people in totalitarian countries can overthrow their governments, so can we, we don’t have to do it overnight, we don’t have to do it over this one single isolated issue, but we can at least start working against them, eroding the structures that support them. Fuck governments like these, figure out ways to twist their arm, make things more difficult for them, and eventually, if we keep at it, we’ll get what we want. We hold the power here, not them. We decide what kind of society we want to live in. We need to stop abdicating our responsibilities as citizens and actively fight against this shit.
By all means, challenge your government, but I’m not going to upload my ID to a database to use Discord. I can self host a thing that will accomplish the same goals without doing something that stupid.
That’s fine, and I hate Discord’s general situation too, and I can’t wait for a properly federated self-hostable open source alternative to take off. But it just seems a bit knee-jerk or straw that broke the camel’s back to throw Discord under the bus specifically for this. To be clear, you don’t actually need to provide ID, you can either continue using a limited account (it’s barely limited at all in any serious way unless you’re using Discord for NSFW stuff) or you can attempt to validate your face with a camera instead, which supposedly happens completely on-device. Either one is a totally reasonable alternative.
If you believe that photo validation lives entirely on your device, you might be surprised by how many times the tech industry straight up lies about this kind of stuff, but I don’t trust that for a minute.
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Do you have any suggestions for a better/open-source alternative?
A few mentioned here, with them recommending mumble
https://alternativeto.net/software/discord-app/?origin=eu
Back to mumble, sigh
Already deleted!