There’s no shortage of games that have been successfully built around it. This is the whole basis for Rogue (1980). Games that are designed to be replayable would be far too repetitive if you only had a handful of premade levels.
But there also no shortage of games that didn’t feel like they used it well, games that could’ve been significantly improved with hand-crafted levels. I played Persona 5 before 4, and this stuck out to me like a sore thumb when I went back to 4.
Generally, if level design is a core focus of the game, then the levels gotta be designed. But if maps are just a backdrop for a more mechanics-focused game, randomization may help those mechanics shine.
I like Shattered Pixel Dungeon, The Binding of Isaac and Lethal Company, so sure they’re great when done right!
They can add a lot of replayability, but they can just as well very quickly make your game suck more than if it had purposefully made levels. (I think a prominent example of bad proc-gen in general is Skyrim’s radiant quests.)
I find them really boring, especially in RPG contexts. The difference is night and day when you walk into a handcrafted dungeon that has situational storytelling, creative direction, and ambiance that conveys a specific feeling. Bethesda games do this exceptionally well, for example.
Handcrafting a world also gives meaning to exploration; when I explore a procedurally generated world I feel like I’m just walking around aimlessly, looking for just another treasure chest or enemy to fight. But in a hand-crafted world, there are specific things to look for, situational stories to be told, or even secrets to find that the creator hid. That’s a lot more fun to explore than walking around in a glorified geometric algorithm
don’t matter to me. procedurally generated, AI generated, hand curated. it’s all the same imo.
is the game itself fun? is the story good? are the game mechanics fun? that’s what matters to me more then how the level gets built. granted you don’t wanna see copy/paste nonstop, that would be kinda annoying but still goes back to the game as a whole…is it fun
take Morgenstern for example, they do it. levels are kinda bleh, but I’m not there for the level specifically, I’m there for the gameplay, monsters and the loot!
i think they are great when they are able to provide variety in terms of gameplay, challenge etc, as opposed to just being different layouts. My first thought is roguelikes and roguelites - Some of my favorite games are Binding of Isaac and Spelunky, which do it really well, and I still play the original roguelikes like Angband sometimes.
I think they get a bad wrap due to how frequently they are used as a crutch to scale up content quantity without quality. Which isn’t an unfair opinion to have given the fact that this is the case more often than not.
But at the end of the day ProcGen is a design tool like any other that, when in the hands of a passionate team using it with intent and creativity, can be an effective way to bring elements of surprise/randomness/chaos and/or remove tedious work from development to allow for more time to handcraft content where it can best be utilized.
Some games that show off how it can be an effective tool (not all specifically ProcGen Dungeons), Dwarf Fortress, Noita, Caves of Qud, Minecraft, Elite Dangerous, Deep Rock Galactic, a lot of 4x games (Civ, HoMM3, etc), also a lot of indie rougelike/lites (Rougle Legacy, Splunky, FTL, etc)
The important part, imho, is that the developers are investing the time to make it “good”. Either by treating it like a core design mechanic with it’s own unique/engaging qualities, or by treating it like a “quick rough draft” and going back to curate and hand craft quality content on top of it.
I think that they have been used effectively in games like Starbound and Terraria or many roguelikes and roguelites.
I think that there have been some games where they do not work well.
Starfield has a beautiful terrain generator, but different terrain doesn’t really change gameplay, nor does combat really scale up to making use of very large maps, so you have the ability to explore infinite expanses of planets, but it doesn’t really provide much in gameplay terms. Aside from finding a cluster of useful resources near each other for an outpost, which isn’t that interesting from a gameplay standpoint and doesn’t need most of the terrain generator’s functionality, it’s mostly just cosmetic.
I think that they work best where how you play the game changes substantially based on the mix of features of the dungeon. Then throwing a new mix each time at the player helps keep things interesting.
If the game has good combat and good loot, rng dungeons means I can fight and play loot lottery forever. When encounteres are 100% scripted, with cutscenes or platforming in the mix, it gets old fast…
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: [email protected]
A gaming community free from the hype and oversaturation of current releases, catering to gamers who wait at least 12 months after release to play a game. Whether it’s price, waiting for bugs/issues to be patched, DLC to be released, don’t meet the system requirements, or just haven’t had the time to keep up with the latest releases.
Amazing when done right like Diablo II or Minecraft !
There’s no shortage of games that have been successfully built around it. This is the whole basis for Rogue (1980). Games that are designed to be replayable would be far too repetitive if you only had a handful of premade levels.
But there also no shortage of games that didn’t feel like they used it well, games that could’ve been significantly improved with hand-crafted levels. I played Persona 5 before 4, and this stuck out to me like a sore thumb when I went back to 4.
Generally, if level design is a core focus of the game, then the levels gotta be designed. But if maps are just a backdrop for a more mechanics-focused game, randomization may help those mechanics shine.
I like Shattered Pixel Dungeon, The Binding of Isaac and Lethal Company, so sure they’re great when done right!
They can add a lot of replayability, but they can just as well very quickly make your game suck more than if it had purposefully made levels. (I think a prominent example of bad proc-gen in general is Skyrim’s radiant quests.)
well, I’m subscribed to every roguelike muni on lemmy, soooooo
I don’t think I’ve ever seen “community” abbreviated as “muni”
It starts with us!
I find them really boring, especially in RPG contexts. The difference is night and day when you walk into a handcrafted dungeon that has situational storytelling, creative direction, and ambiance that conveys a specific feeling. Bethesda games do this exceptionally well, for example.
Handcrafting a world also gives meaning to exploration; when I explore a procedurally generated world I feel like I’m just walking around aimlessly, looking for just another treasure chest or enemy to fight. But in a hand-crafted world, there are specific things to look for, situational stories to be told, or even secrets to find that the creator hid. That’s a lot more fun to explore than walking around in a glorified geometric algorithm
don’t matter to me. procedurally generated, AI generated, hand curated. it’s all the same imo.
is the game itself fun? is the story good? are the game mechanics fun? that’s what matters to me more then how the level gets built. granted you don’t wanna see copy/paste nonstop, that would be kinda annoying but still goes back to the game as a whole…is it fun
take Morgenstern for example, they do it. levels are kinda bleh, but I’m not there for the level specifically, I’m there for the gameplay, monsters and the loot!
That’s how I felt about Shadow Warrior 2
I’m sure they can be done right, but I’ve never seen them done right, so I’m not for them. Everything starts to feel the same very quickly.
Not even Diablo II? I think that’s done pretty well.
Absolutely essential for the full experience in a retro roguelike.
Usually repetitive and boring in 3D.
I hate playing on a sponge. Handcrafted all day.
i think they are great when they are able to provide variety in terms of gameplay, challenge etc, as opposed to just being different layouts. My first thought is roguelikes and roguelites - Some of my favorite games are Binding of Isaac and Spelunky, which do it really well, and I still play the original roguelikes like Angband sometimes.
I think they get a bad wrap due to how frequently they are used as a crutch to scale up content quantity without quality. Which isn’t an unfair opinion to have given the fact that this is the case more often than not.
But at the end of the day ProcGen is a design tool like any other that, when in the hands of a passionate team using it with intent and creativity, can be an effective way to bring elements of surprise/randomness/chaos and/or remove tedious work from development to allow for more time to handcraft content where it can best be utilized.
Some games that show off how it can be an effective tool (not all specifically ProcGen Dungeons), Dwarf Fortress, Noita, Caves of Qud, Minecraft, Elite Dangerous, Deep Rock Galactic, a lot of 4x games (Civ, HoMM3, etc), also a lot of indie rougelike/lites (Rougle Legacy, Splunky, FTL, etc)
The important part, imho, is that the developers are investing the time to make it “good”. Either by treating it like a core design mechanic with it’s own unique/engaging qualities, or by treating it like a “quick rough draft” and going back to curate and hand craft quality content on top of it.
Depends on the game.
I think that they have been used effectively in games like Starbound and Terraria or many roguelikes and roguelites.
I think that there have been some games where they do not work well.
Starfield has a beautiful terrain generator, but different terrain doesn’t really change gameplay, nor does combat really scale up to making use of very large maps, so you have the ability to explore infinite expanses of planets, but it doesn’t really provide much in gameplay terms. Aside from finding a cluster of useful resources near each other for an outpost, which isn’t that interesting from a gameplay standpoint and doesn’t need most of the terrain generator’s functionality, it’s mostly just cosmetic.
I think that they work best where how you play the game changes substantially based on the mix of features of the dungeon. Then throwing a new mix each time at the player helps keep things interesting.
If the game has good combat and good loot, rng dungeons means I can fight and play loot lottery forever. When encounteres are 100% scripted, with cutscenes or platforming in the mix, it gets old fast…
When done well it greatly expands the game’s replayability.
When done poorly it feels bland and boring.
I think that like a great many game mechanics, the fact that it’s been done badly many times doesn’t mean that it can’t be done well.