Any stealth game with a forced overt section should have a warning.
Examples:
Deus Ex: Human Revolution - Optional stealth game, but the boss battles just drop you in a room with the boss fully aware of you and that’s the fight.
Assassin’s Creed: Odyssey - Optional stealth, except for the battles for power where you can flip control of an area. No stealth allowed.
It’s only bad when the game isn’t a stealth game and also has shittastic stealth mechanics.
It’s worse when it’s the opposite, like Deus Ex: Human Revolution where the game is meant to be played in stealth, but then the boss battles are straight up FPS style shootouts when most players probably didn’t put points into combat skills or armor because they’re supposed to be a sneaky spy.
I honestly think the most egregious bullshit that has to do with stealth is Elden Ring and Sekiro. They have decent enough stealth mechanics, but they also have enemies that straight up don’t give a fuck that you’re in stealth so you’re never actually able to sneak around the entire time. It’s not that upsetting in ER, given it’s not the intended method of play, but in Sekiro you’re a literal god damn ninja who relies on being unseen. And iirc, Fromsoft also made Tenchu; one of the best stealth games of all time.
Unfortunately, FromSoft wasn’t on Tenchu until later in the series when it…wasn’t so great. Still, that Sekiro started as a Tenchu concept is why I picked up the game in the first place. And like Tenchu, effective stealth is there, it’s just especially challenging.
Now, Zelda: Skyward Sword is one I can’t defend (and one of the reasons I’m surprised OP is getting crushed for this post).
On the one hand I get where you’re coming from, those sections are very thematically different from the rest of the game, but realistically it’s just a couple of minutes of very easy stealth.
Hold up, “enshitification” is just turning into a buzzword now.
Enshitification has from the beginning described a service or product which is first released one way, and then over time is made worse for the users in ways designed to squeeze more profit out of them.
Without some serious mental gymnastics, forced stealth sections tend to just be bad design choices. Not every bad thing is the same kind of bad thing.
Without some serious mental gymnastics, forced stealth sections tend to just be bad design choices. Not every bad thing is the same kind of bad thing.
While I disagree with your comment on the definition of “enshittification”, I agree that forced stealth sections are just bad design. I remember those have been a thing for a long time now, and before then it was ice levels.
Copying from a later reply: I was reading their definition as being too specific. Imo enshittification is any time the relative average quality of a class of products or services decreases, either due to increased prices or decreased quality at the same price. This can be applied to a specific product or service, but can also describe a decline in quality across an industry.
Wikipedia isn’t the end all, but in this case I think it provides a working definition.
Enshittification (alternately, crapification and platform decay) is a pattern in which online products and services decline in quality. Initially, vendors create high-quality offerings to attract users, then they degrade those offerings to better serve business customers, and finally degrade their services to users and business customers to maximize profits for shareholders.
I was reading your definition as being too specific. Imo enshittification is any time the relative average quality of a class of products or services decreases, either due to increased prices or decreased quality at the same price. This can be applied to a specific product or service, but can also describe a decline in quality across an industry.
Enshittification refers to a process with specific phases that ensure services will degrade at the expense of users, and then business customers, so that shareholders can extract as much profit as possible from both of those groups. It was coined by Cory Doctorow, who explains it here:
Here is how platforms die: First, they are good to their users; then they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers; finally, they abuse those business customers to claw back all the value for themselves. Then, they die.
I call this enshittification, and it is a seemingly inevitable consequence arising from the combination of the ease of changing how a platform allocates value, combined with the nature of a “two-sided market,” where a platform sits between buyers and sellers, hold each hostage to the other, raking off an ever-larger share of the value that passes between them.
There’s a danger in any game where it might be largely designed and marketed to be one thing, and then has lengthy mandatory sections where it becomes another.
Poorly made stealth sections are a prime example. Game designers want to change things up, but if the game isn’t made to do stealth, it can easily turn into an annoying mess. There are a few (not a ton, but a few) games where the mandatory stealth sections are well liked, but they were made to carefully take advantage of the game’s strengths and knew when to end.
There’s a danger in any game where it might be largely designed and marketed to be one thing, and then has lengthy mandatory sections where it becomes another.
This is the only issue I have with the cyberpunk 2077 DLC. Most of the game is an open-world action rpg. Then all of a sudden depending on your choices in the DLC you can end up in a mission that is basically Alien: Isolation survival horror. You go from being a powerhouse that can destroy pretty much anything in the game and shrug off missile hits to being hunted and unable to kill what is hunting you. It was super fucking annoying the first time I did the DLC because I hate those type of games. Great DLC except for that small part.
I blame Metroid Dread for that one. Such a bizarre design choice for Phantom Liberty, especially being very late in the game. At least Dread flipped that around.
It’s a pet peeve of mine, I hate stealth sections. Waiting around just isn’t fun and most stealth sections are just that.
However, that was years ago. I haven’t encountered one in a long time since I mostly stopped playing AAA games - by now these games are an amalgamation of so many worse design decisions, I almost miss the time stealth sections were my biggest issue.
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I’d say the opposite:
Any stealth game with a forced overt section should have a warning.
Examples:
Deus Ex: Human Revolution - Optional stealth game, but the boss battles just drop you in a room with the boss fully aware of you and that’s the fight.
Assassin’s Creed: Odyssey - Optional stealth, except for the battles for power where you can flip control of an area. No stealth allowed.
It’s only bad when the game isn’t a stealth game and also has shittastic stealth mechanics.
It’s worse when it’s the opposite, like Deus Ex: Human Revolution where the game is meant to be played in stealth, but then the boss battles are straight up FPS style shootouts when most players probably didn’t put points into combat skills or armor because they’re supposed to be a sneaky spy.
I honestly think the most egregious bullshit that has to do with stealth is Elden Ring and Sekiro. They have decent enough stealth mechanics, but they also have enemies that straight up don’t give a fuck that you’re in stealth so you’re never actually able to sneak around the entire time. It’s not that upsetting in ER, given it’s not the intended method of play, but in Sekiro you’re a literal god damn ninja who relies on being unseen. And iirc, Fromsoft also made Tenchu; one of the best stealth games of all time.
Unfortunately, FromSoft wasn’t on Tenchu until later in the series when it…wasn’t so great. Still, that Sekiro started as a Tenchu concept is why I picked up the game in the first place. And like Tenchu, effective stealth is there, it’s just especially challenging.
Now, Zelda: Skyward Sword is one I can’t defend (and one of the reasons I’m surprised OP is getting crushed for this post).
Skyward Sword had a stealth section?
Unless you’re talking about the “Collecting seeds in the shadow realm” section but I dunno if that counts
Skyward Sword was also the least Zelda feeling game of all the Zelda games I’ve played. And I played at least 2 of the CD-I games.
Whoever said “there’s no such thing as a wrong opinion“ never read anything like this post.
That’s your biggest worry with modern gaming?
It wasn’t until I had spend a almost a half an hour on that fucking MJ missions on spiderman.
thats literally the second easiest stealth section in the past 2 decades of gaming.
There are some out there that are actually so infuriatingly bad due to shitty programming and npc noticing you is rng and skill isn’t an option.
Honestly, Spiderman’s stealth sections are way way worse. But they don’t make me dread continuing the story.
On the one hand I get where you’re coming from, those sections are very thematically different from the rest of the game, but realistically it’s just a couple of minutes of very easy stealth.
Maybe they have a physical limitation like MS or Parkinson’s?
Fair point, but I suspect even people with disabilities hate the general enshittification of games.
Hold up, “enshitification” is just turning into a buzzword now.
Enshitification has from the beginning described a service or product which is first released one way, and then over time is made worse for the users in ways designed to squeeze more profit out of them.
Without some serious mental gymnastics, forced stealth sections tend to just be bad design choices. Not every bad thing is the same kind of bad thing.
I wasn’t implying that stealth sections were enshittification.
Entshitification itself has been entshitified.
While I disagree with your comment on the definition of “enshittification”, I agree that forced stealth sections are just bad design. I remember those have been a thing for a long time now, and before then it was ice levels.
Copying from a later reply: I was reading their definition as being too specific. Imo enshittification is any time the relative average quality of a class of products or services decreases, either due to increased prices or decreased quality at the same price. This can be applied to a specific product or service, but can also describe a decline in quality across an industry.
Nah, Escort Missions are way worse than Ice. They’re always so janky too
Wikipedia isn’t the end all, but in this case I think it provides a working definition.
I was reading your definition as being too specific. Imo enshittification is any time the relative average quality of a class of products or services decreases, either due to increased prices or decreased quality at the same price. This can be applied to a specific product or service, but can also describe a decline in quality across an industry.
The term is more specific than that, referring to runaway capitalism being the cause. Otherwise you’d just use something simpler like “worsening.”
The original context comes from a 2022 blog post.
This is not enshittification.
Enshittification refers to a process with specific phases that ensure services will degrade at the expense of users, and then business customers, so that shareholders can extract as much profit as possible from both of those groups. It was coined by Cory Doctorow, who explains it here:
There’s a danger in any game where it might be largely designed and marketed to be one thing, and then has lengthy mandatory sections where it becomes another.
Poorly made stealth sections are a prime example. Game designers want to change things up, but if the game isn’t made to do stealth, it can easily turn into an annoying mess. There are a few (not a ton, but a few) games where the mandatory stealth sections are well liked, but they were made to carefully take advantage of the game’s strengths and knew when to end.
This is the only issue I have with the cyberpunk 2077 DLC. Most of the game is an open-world action rpg. Then all of a sudden depending on your choices in the DLC you can end up in a mission that is basically Alien: Isolation survival horror. You go from being a powerhouse that can destroy pretty much anything in the game and shrug off missile hits to being hunted and unable to kill what is hunting you. It was super fucking annoying the first time I did the DLC because I hate those type of games. Great DLC except for that small part.
I blame Metroid Dread for that one. Such a bizarre design choice for Phantom Liberty, especially being very late in the game. At least Dread flipped that around.
Maybe it’s just been a while for me but what part was this? I dont remember a section like that off the top of my head.
The mission is Somewhat damaged which come after Firestarter when you sided with Reed instead of So mi.
It’s a pet peeve of mine, I hate stealth sections. Waiting around just isn’t fun and most stealth sections are just that.
However, that was years ago. I haven’t encountered one in a long time since I mostly stopped playing AAA games - by now these games are an amalgamation of so many worse design decisions, I almost miss the time stealth sections were my biggest issue.
Hot take.
Steaming hot.
Like a freshly laid turd.
Their name checks out, I guess.
Personally, I hate unskippable cutscenes, but I won’t call it crap and not buy from it.
Any post by drunkpostdisaster needs to have a warning so I know not to read that crap.
I take it you’re not good at stealth.
I am good when the game doesn’t suck.
So it is a skill issue.
Same with Spider Man games that make you play as Maryjane
That was exactly what inspired this post. Its at the point that I don;t want to continue for fear of doing more ofthat bullshit.