Stardew Valley creator Eric "ConcernedApe" Barone has assured fans that he is "not going to abandon Haunted Chocolatier," saying: "it's taking a while to finish the game," and "that's okay."
I think you just have to leave people like this to work on these projects as they feel inspired/motivated.
There’s no sense getting worked up about when it releases, this isn’t Winds of Winter where Stardew left us with a cliffhanger or any unresolved situation.
I mean, he spent 4 years of 70-hour weeks making Stardew. I’d expect Haunted Chocolatier to take equally as long - actually longer, since he’s still making Stardew releases, presumably taking some time for himself these days, has to approve any official merch or related stuff like the concert series, etc.
Presumably if he uses the same or similar engine then much of the groundwork is already done, so I would imagine it wouldn’t take quite as long. But I could be wrong.
Obviously, this is the only sane solution for a one-man team, but all game developers need to put their foot down and say “it’s ready when it’s ready.”
No marketing deadlines, no “crunch time,” make the game until the game is made, release it, maintain it, do it again if you think you have a good idea.
While I generally agree, I think there is some value in imposing some kind of deadline or limit to a project. Nothing is ever going to be perfect. There will always be more work that could be done on something. If you let yourself just keep going until you think it’s done it might never come out.
But it’s a balance and when publishers push those kinds of deadlines they’re not really considering that.
When it reaches the “good/mostly done but not perfect/could still be better” stage, it’s time to pre-release it for alpha/beta testing while you work out the kinks and add features.
I remember playing Minecraft in alpha version before it even switched to beta. It was fine.
Even full releases can have updates and expansions to add new features, it’s totally fine. But the core development of the game shouldn’t be rushed just to get it published.
I recently launched a business as a solo dev / founder. It was agonizing trying to get all the last details done and be happy enough to finally say, this is what I’m going to release.
I could have gone on forever if I’d let myself. Oh they need this, oh they need that! This other thing can be better!
Now that it’s out, that pressure is gone, and I can just do smaller updates now which are focused more heavily on the feedback I’m getting from customers.
I probably could have released 3-4 months earlier had I been better about it.
Publishers are considering return on investment. In a model where they are providing the game budget to the studio, every delay means more money out of their pocket. Case by case it might be worth it, but just allowing developers to infinitely say it’s “almost ready, just one more delay” isn’t reasonable.
I know from the hard core gamer audience that discusses this stuff online there is often this vibe that nothing should be cut from games. People look at various interesting cut content and lament it for not getting enough time, but there is always going to be cut content.
If there isn’t a lead on the development team putting their foot down to control the scope and focus the team, and a similar push for focus by a publisher you get a meandering unfocused project that goes over budget.
In the solo/small amateur team dev, self-publishing model that ROI pressure isn’t coming externally from a separate publisher. It is means solo devs are making their first games usually on a budget of nothing, as a side project to their day jobs. In some cases like with Concerned Ape it turns out great. In many cases development comes out tediously slowly, like with Death Trash. In innumerable cases the games just die.
In cases like Wasteland 2 it was a full professional team working full time using crowdfunding. An alternate model, but still limited by budget pressure. There was no publisher to pay back, but when the crowd funding money was gone, it was gone. That game did come out and it was enjoyable, but clearly it wasn’t “done when it’s done” levels of polish by the team since they used the profits from the game to release a “Director’s Cut” which was a whole polishing pass on the game they simply couldn’t afford the first time.
A few people seem to think I meant a game like Stardew or Chocolateir should take several years because that’s how long they take with one person. Obviously if you have a studio of people, even a small studio like early Mojang, you can get more work done much more quickly.
Obviously, I think, I mean the publisher should defer to the developers regarding how long work would take to complete, not the other way around. And no one should listen to the demands of shareholders or anyone else that is completely departed from the production process.
That would be nice in a perfect world but bills need to be paid. I’m not defending crunch time, but not every project can afford to be “ready when it’s ready”. I don’t think many companies would survive like that.
The above comments were talking about how this policy should apply to every game development project. Which is a nice thought, but not realistic for every situation.
Oh yes, I’m sure all those billion dollar companies would have all shut down by now if they had to wait a few weeks to put out a game. Putting out buggy unplayable shit was an absolute necessity.
all game developers need to put their foot down and say “it’s ready when it’s ready.”
No marketing deadlines, no “crunch time,” make the game until the game is made
It isn’t saying publishers should be more flexible about deadline delays, it is saying there simply shouldn’t be deadlines at all.
Shoveling infinite money at a developer who tells you it will be ready when it’s ready is the Chris Roberts model of game development. While it certainly produces interesting results, it is unrealistic and undesirable to expect it as the standard.
Games that are developing well but need a little more time to fix issues should be given flexibility by publishers, but at the end of the day there are stretch ideas and content that has to be cut. Doing that cutting and keeping the project focused is what a lead on the dev team should be doing throughout the entire development. If a game has a realistic deadline given the expected scope and the dev team comes back and says they actually need another year of production, then it is worth looking into if that extra time is going to make the game a year’s worth of investment better or not.
In a publisher fronting money to developer situation, without a fixed time limit (or money limit, which functionally translates to a time limit) is the publisher just infinitely on the hook to pay for dev time “until it’s done”?
Well yeah, but not every dev and company is ConcernedApe. I reckon the same can be said of Balatro dev, and Team Cherry, and a few others. It’s awesome for them who can afford to do this, but that’s definitely not the norm. Most companies can’t afford to sit on a project for 8 years without releasing a product.
You’re telling me chocolate isn’t some natural pre-existing resource? Smh. Next you’re going to tell me chocolate milk doesn’t come from chocolate milk cows.
Idk what it is about players now, but if there is an announcement, they want the game out immediately. Another game I follow is being made by a small dev team, and they give somewhat regular updates. Multiple a year, generally timed to monthly, but like Dec got skipped for holidays. It’s almost daily someone is claiming the game isn’t coming out, it’s a scam, the game doesn’t exist, etc. And this wouldn’t have anywhere near the fan base ConcernedApe is dealing with. Just shut up and let people make the game…they don’t owe you a game, or updates about the game.
Maybe it’s cause GTA6 and TES6 are in dev hell and it’s become a meme that they aren’t releasing, but still. It’s top-shelf annoying behavior.
it works if your games are fundamentally different like in this case. the cons about modding is that expectations of sequels are higher than normal because youre no longer comparing the game to the previous, but to the modded version of the previous.
for example, outside of performance reasons, City Skylines 2 had that fate.
I think one of the reasons Stardew has had such a long life is the modding community: it’s been ten years since it’s release and I can’t imagine playing it that long. I can, however, bring up Passerby Cemetery, East Scarp, Ridgeside, etc, and scratch my Stardew itch with new content every couple years.
I’m sure Eric knows this as well, and would include modding in HC.
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He has already stated he comes and goes, to and from that project, and he will prioritize stardew valley still
I think you just have to leave people like this to work on these projects as they feel inspired/motivated.
There’s no sense getting worked up about when it releases, this isn’t Winds of Winter where Stardew left us with a cliffhanger or any unresolved situation.
I mean, he spent 4 years of 70-hour weeks making Stardew. I’d expect Haunted Chocolatier to take equally as long - actually longer, since he’s still making Stardew releases, presumably taking some time for himself these days, has to approve any official merch or related stuff like the concert series, etc.
Presumably if he uses the same or similar engine then much of the groundwork is already done, so I would imagine it wouldn’t take quite as long. But I could be wrong.
He states in the post Haunted Choclatier uses a different engine fyi.
Oh, fair enough. Thanks
That’s the right policy.
A lot of gamers are fucking brats
Seriously, remember all the bullshit they were giving cherry for silk song and it drops and it’s actually a polished fairly glitch free experience?
It’s almost like if you give people the time they need, you get what was promised. Wish psychonauts 2 had more time.
At this point I just kinda expect Haunted Chocolatier to come out as a major update for Stardew Valley and not it’s own game. 🤷♂️
I’d be into it. Go to bed on the farm, wavy 90s transition, different game!
Dude came out with a FREE update to stardew valley while in the middle of making chocolatier. I doubt any serious stardew fan is thinking this.
Two free (major) updates: 1.5 and 1.6 both came out after Haunted Chocolatier was announced.
And he’s working on 1.7
People need to chill out. patience is a fuckin virtue
Obviously, this is the only sane solution for a one-man team, but all game developers need to put their foot down and say “it’s ready when it’s ready.”
No marketing deadlines, no “crunch time,” make the game until the game is made, release it, maintain it, do it again if you think you have a good idea.
While I generally agree, I think there is some value in imposing some kind of deadline or limit to a project. Nothing is ever going to be perfect. There will always be more work that could be done on something. If you let yourself just keep going until you think it’s done it might never come out.
But it’s a balance and when publishers push those kinds of deadlines they’re not really considering that.
I’m particularly thinking about the development history of Duke Nukem Forever…
True, but this developer has done this before. Theres currently no reason not to have faith in them.
When it reaches the “good/mostly done but not perfect/could still be better” stage, it’s time to pre-release it for alpha/beta testing while you work out the kinks and add features.
I remember playing Minecraft in alpha version before it even switched to beta. It was fine.
Even full releases can have updates and expansions to add new features, it’s totally fine. But the core development of the game shouldn’t be rushed just to get it published.
I recently launched a business as a solo dev / founder. It was agonizing trying to get all the last details done and be happy enough to finally say, this is what I’m going to release.
I could have gone on forever if I’d let myself. Oh they need this, oh they need that! This other thing can be better!
Now that it’s out, that pressure is gone, and I can just do smaller updates now which are focused more heavily on the feedback I’m getting from customers.
I probably could have released 3-4 months earlier had I been better about it.
Publishers are considering return on investment. In a model where they are providing the game budget to the studio, every delay means more money out of their pocket. Case by case it might be worth it, but just allowing developers to infinitely say it’s “almost ready, just one more delay” isn’t reasonable.
I know from the hard core gamer audience that discusses this stuff online there is often this vibe that nothing should be cut from games. People look at various interesting cut content and lament it for not getting enough time, but there is always going to be cut content.
If there isn’t a lead on the development team putting their foot down to control the scope and focus the team, and a similar push for focus by a publisher you get a meandering unfocused project that goes over budget.
In the solo/small amateur team dev, self-publishing model that ROI pressure isn’t coming externally from a separate publisher. It is means solo devs are making their first games usually on a budget of nothing, as a side project to their day jobs. In some cases like with Concerned Ape it turns out great. In many cases development comes out tediously slowly, like with Death Trash. In innumerable cases the games just die.
In cases like Wasteland 2 it was a full professional team working full time using crowdfunding. An alternate model, but still limited by budget pressure. There was no publisher to pay back, but when the crowd funding money was gone, it was gone. That game did come out and it was enjoyable, but clearly it wasn’t “done when it’s done” levels of polish by the team since they used the profits from the game to release a “Director’s Cut” which was a whole polishing pass on the game they simply couldn’t afford the first time.
Or said another way, not having cut content means they released their first rough draft instead of editing and refining it.
Beware Star Citizen.
Vaporware is an entirely different animal.
A few people seem to think I meant a game like Stardew or Chocolateir should take several years because that’s how long they take with one person. Obviously if you have a studio of people, even a small studio like early Mojang, you can get more work done much more quickly.
Obviously, I think, I mean the publisher should defer to the developers regarding how long work would take to complete, not the other way around. And no one should listen to the demands of shareholders or anyone else that is completely departed from the production process.
That would be nice in a perfect world but bills need to be paid. I’m not defending crunch time, but not every project can afford to be “ready when it’s ready”. I don’t think many companies would survive like that.
Concerned ape can afford to put this game out in 2035 lol.
The above comments were talking about how this policy should apply to every game development project. Which is a nice thought, but not realistic for every situation.
Oh yes, I’m sure all those billion dollar companies would have all shut down by now if they had to wait a few weeks to put out a game. Putting out buggy unplayable shit was an absolute necessity.
Let’s look at the initial comment in the chain:
It isn’t saying publishers should be more flexible about deadline delays, it is saying there simply shouldn’t be deadlines at all.
Shoveling infinite money at a developer who tells you it will be ready when it’s ready is the Chris Roberts model of game development. While it certainly produces interesting results, it is unrealistic and undesirable to expect it as the standard.
Games that are developing well but need a little more time to fix issues should be given flexibility by publishers, but at the end of the day there are stretch ideas and content that has to be cut. Doing that cutting and keeping the project focused is what a lead on the dev team should be doing throughout the entire development. If a game has a realistic deadline given the expected scope and the dev team comes back and says they actually need another year of production, then it is worth looking into if that extra time is going to make the game a year’s worth of investment better or not.
Rather than choosing an arbitrary time, you should choose a state of the game to call finished. Limited time will always lead to crunch inevitably.
In a publisher fronting money to developer situation, without a fixed time limit (or money limit, which functionally translates to a time limit) is the publisher just infinitely on the hook to pay for dev time “until it’s done”?
Well yeah, but not every dev and company is ConcernedApe. I reckon the same can be said of Balatro dev, and Team Cherry, and a few others. It’s awesome for them who can afford to do this, but that’s definitely not the norm. Most companies can’t afford to sit on a project for 8 years without releasing a product.
Just to compliment the creator, I have molded SV and the code is beautiful. Rarely do you go into a cold base and have little to complain about.
As they say: “Let him cook.”
Hm do you cook chocolate?
Yes?
You’re telling me chocolate isn’t some natural pre-existing resource? Smh. Next you’re going to tell me chocolate milk doesn’t come from chocolate milk cows.
You got to harvest the chocolate milk from a river with a bunch of workers. It’s all how chocolate and candy is made. There is a movie based on it.
https://youtu.be/ugQNEXRRZKk
Idk what it is about players now, but if there is an announcement, they want the game out immediately. Another game I follow is being made by a small dev team, and they give somewhat regular updates. Multiple a year, generally timed to monthly, but like Dec got skipped for holidays. It’s almost daily someone is claiming the game isn’t coming out, it’s a scam, the game doesn’t exist, etc. And this wouldn’t have anywhere near the fan base ConcernedApe is dealing with. Just shut up and let people make the game…they don’t owe you a game, or updates about the game.
Maybe it’s cause GTA6 and TES6 are in dev hell and it’s become a meme that they aren’t releasing, but still. It’s top-shelf annoying behavior.
We’re burned by promised titles never appearing.
Where’s by Elder Scrolls 6, Bethesda?
I bet the music is gonna be bangin
I highly doubt I’ll live to see its release
Let the man cook
Will this game support modding, like stardew?
ConcernedApe has been very supportive of modding Stardew Valley, so I don’t see why this game would be different
I can’t see why not, but it’s targeting a 2030 release so it’s kind of early to be thinking about that sort of thing.
Devs need to think about modding from the very beginning.
it works if your games are fundamentally different like in this case. the cons about modding is that expectations of sequels are higher than normal because youre no longer comparing the game to the previous, but to the modded version of the previous.
for example, outside of performance reasons, City Skylines 2 had that fate.
It’s not targeted for 2030, it’s a case of “it’s ready when it’s ready”
I think one of the reasons Stardew has had such a long life is the modding community: it’s been ten years since it’s release and I can’t imagine playing it that long. I can, however, bring up Passerby Cemetery, East Scarp, Ridgeside, etc, and scratch my Stardew itch with new content every couple years.
I’m sure Eric knows this as well, and would include modding in HC.
Sums up gaming industry. Lots of crap and insane fanboys.