Back to Greenshade adventures in Elder Scrolls Online, but before I did anything, I opened up the four remaining free lockboxes I got this month. On top of the plague doctor outfit I received with …
Some MMOs seem to focus more or story and environment than being challenging. I got into Final Fantasy XIV and it’s also ridiculously easy. People are into it because of the story and characters (ERP).
You’re right, but at least there are challenges to be found in FFXIV. Attempting to run past monsters and click the thing will result in death. There are clear bosses where taking you hands off the keyboard for 5-10 seconds means you won’t make it. I am sure the high-end of ESO has genuine challenges, but I couldn’t find them. This is a game where you can genuinely ignore enemies and afk during combat and you’ll still survive. o
To be clear, I think it’s devs really hit on a specific market: there are a lot of people out there who genuinely want a “wind-down, complete quests in vibrant world and feel like a hero” MMO. I was just bored out of my tree after a few days because I am the furthest thing from that audience. Casually getting into ESO, it is truly a challenge-free landscape, far more so than even the intensely story and social driven FFXIV.
That depends. If an MMO is well written (as FFXIV and ESO are for many) then it doesn’t make much of a difference. Additionally, all to other people running around make the world feel a bit more alive compared to scripted NPCs, even if one doesn’t participate in the actual group content.
but by nature MMOs are extremely static in terms of the world, NPCs etc because they have to be there for every PC at every stage of their story. To me that always makes them feel less alive despite a bunch of PCs scurrying around.
So are a lot of single-player games. Players running around in the background just add some semblance of “dynamic life” to the world. There’s also the possibility of “well, I’m not playing with people right now but I could if I really wanted to”.
I’m not saying that your perspective is wrong on that (I tend to bounce between the two views for example) but for some people just being in the same world as other players provides enough dynamism to make it feel more interesting than playing completely on your own.
I’m not saying whether it is or isn’t well written, I haven’t played enough to have an informed opinion on the game. All I’m saying is, some people like it well enough they have no problem treating it as a fun single-player experience with real people running in the background.
Maybe, but I think it’s just the idea that it doesn’t need to be mutually exclusive.
If you play an MMO, you are probably there primarily for the community/group/social content, the character builds, the economy, the frequent updates, etc. But nothing says it can’t also have a good story.
To use FF14 as an example, as the only one I’ve played, the story could probably be told just as well in the form of a single-player game (or, being more realistic given its size, a series of single-player games). But it exists in the first place because there is a market for people who like both MMOs and the kinds of stories told in Final Fantasy games. For people who aren’t into the online elements, there are still plenty of good single-player experiences out there, like maybe the 14 other Final Fantasy titles that aren’t MMOs.
Not necessarily. MMOs have a lot of room for emergent story telling opportunities that just don’t exist in other mediums, things like community events that genuinely matter or developers responding to major trends in the player base. although i very rarely see good MMO design like that in MMOs, could be that i just don’t look at a lot of them though.
An anecdotal experience I had with Final Fantasy 14 is that, while the main quests seem boringly easy to me, they were the right amount of challenge for my partner at the time who had never played an MMO before.
Anything above basic content in 14 (which is lowest common denominator content) can honestly be quite challenging, and savage and ultimate content is very very difficult content overall. It’s all about how much time and effort you’re willing to invest, the first 70 levels of content is pretty braindead so anyone can beat it.
Curious if elder scrolls online is similar because I honestly don’t know, haven’t played it in a decade.
I’ve played about 150 hours of ESO. One of the big problems, IMO, is that the surface-world PvE story content is so unchallenging it’s boring. They made it so that someone with an intentionally atrocious build can solo everything that’s required for story progression, which means that anyone who puts the slightest thought into their character will steamroll the game. If I thought that’s all there was to the game, I wouldn’t have played it more than an hour.
Honestly, even the default-difficulty dungeons are lame. There’s technically a story in it, but everyone just rushes through it so fast that you have no idea what’s happening. All you know is that you and your party are sprinting from room to room, wiping out huge groups of enemies just by spamming your most efficient area attack. I play a healer character, a Templar in light armor, and when I do standard difficulty I think I pop a basic heal once the entire time if I’m lucky. Sure, the fast pace is exciting for the first few times, but you catch on at some point to the fact that you’re just mindlessly spamming AOEs every time.
If you actually want a challenging game, you need to do the world bosses, veteran dungeons, and trials. World bosses are technically group content, and there is usually a group running a schedule for the world bosses in each zone, but if you hate those people you can kill them yourself. Veteran dungeons are roughly on the same level of difficulty that WoW dungeons are. I actually have to pay attention to my positioning and resources when I’m in one, which is refreshing. Also nice is that the targeting system works seamlessly with my heals; all I need to do is point at my teammate and hit the spell key, no specific targeting required. It feels like I’m in a combat with magic I can control instead of playing with a UI. But anyway, it’s such a different experience from the default difficulty that I really recommend you try it out. You’ll be fine, I sucked my first few times and I never got vote-kicked or even flamed.
Trials are the one thing I don’t have experience with, and to my knowledge it’s the most challenging content by far. Someone else could tell you more about it, though. I also don’t have a ton of experience with PvP, other than getting ganked in Cyrodiil a few times while looking for delves and a match where I just ran around spamming heals and running away from enemies. My team didn’t win and I didn’t get so much as a single kill, but I got the highest score of anyone in the lobby. Good times.
Makes sense. I wouldn’t exactly call Skyrim challenging. It would be crazy for them to put a high barrier to entry on a new genre of game that a lot of long term fans are already hesitant to try
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Some MMOs seem to focus more or story and environment than being challenging. I got into Final Fantasy XIV and it’s also ridiculously easy. People are into it because of the story and characters (ERP).
You’re right, but at least there are challenges to be found in FFXIV. Attempting to run past monsters and click the thing will result in death. There are clear bosses where taking you hands off the keyboard for 5-10 seconds means you won’t make it. I am sure the high-end of ESO has genuine challenges, but I couldn’t find them. This is a game where you can genuinely ignore enemies and afk during combat and you’ll still survive. o
To be clear, I think it’s devs really hit on a specific market: there are a lot of people out there who genuinely want a “wind-down, complete quests in vibrant world and feel like a hero” MMO. I was just bored out of my tree after a few days because I am the furthest thing from that audience. Casually getting into ESO, it is truly a challenge-free landscape, far more so than even the intensely story and social driven FFXIV.
wouldn’t a non-MMO be better to experience story and characters?
Some people are just looking for something to keep them busy while chatting.
That depends. If an MMO is well written (as FFXIV and ESO are for many) then it doesn’t make much of a difference. Additionally, all to other people running around make the world feel a bit more alive compared to scripted NPCs, even if one doesn’t participate in the actual group content.
but by nature MMOs are extremely static in terms of the world, NPCs etc because they have to be there for every PC at every stage of their story. To me that always makes them feel less alive despite a bunch of PCs scurrying around.
So are a lot of single-player games. Players running around in the background just add some semblance of “dynamic life” to the world. There’s also the possibility of “well, I’m not playing with people right now but I could if I really wanted to”.
I’m not saying that your perspective is wrong on that (I tend to bounce between the two views for example) but for some people just being in the same world as other players provides enough dynamism to make it feel more interesting than playing completely on your own.
I would counter that FFXIV is poorly written, has horrible pacing and awful quest design.
The dungeons aren’t the worst Ive seen but offer little challenge.
I’m not saying whether it is or isn’t well written, I haven’t played enough to have an informed opinion on the game. All I’m saying is, some people like it well enough they have no problem treating it as a fun single-player experience with real people running in the background.
Maybe, but I think it’s just the idea that it doesn’t need to be mutually exclusive.
If you play an MMO, you are probably there primarily for the community/group/social content, the character builds, the economy, the frequent updates, etc. But nothing says it can’t also have a good story.
To use FF14 as an example, as the only one I’ve played, the story could probably be told just as well in the form of a single-player game (or, being more realistic given its size, a series of single-player games). But it exists in the first place because there is a market for people who like both MMOs and the kinds of stories told in Final Fantasy games. For people who aren’t into the online elements, there are still plenty of good single-player experiences out there, like maybe the 14 other Final Fantasy titles that aren’t MMOs.
Not necessarily. MMOs have a lot of room for emergent story telling opportunities that just don’t exist in other mediums, things like community events that genuinely matter or developers responding to major trends in the player base. although i very rarely see good MMO design like that in MMOs, could be that i just don’t look at a lot of them though.
Yes.
Guild Wars 2 didn’t do this in the expansions and the game is so much better because of it.
When you are facing a world-ending dragon and it’s army of minions, it’s important that they actually feel freaking dangerous to begin with.
I also enjoy the difficulty of XIV’s serious content. Savage raids blind are super fun. I’ve not tried any ultimates yet, but they look crazy lol
An anecdotal experience I had with Final Fantasy 14 is that, while the main quests seem boringly easy to me, they were the right amount of challenge for my partner at the time who had never played an MMO before.
Anything above basic content in 14 (which is lowest common denominator content) can honestly be quite challenging, and savage and ultimate content is very very difficult content overall. It’s all about how much time and effort you’re willing to invest, the first 70 levels of content is pretty braindead so anyone can beat it.
Curious if elder scrolls online is similar because I honestly don’t know, haven’t played it in a decade.
Base content is super easy. DLC/Expansion Veteran content and trials though are a monster.
I’ve played about 150 hours of ESO. One of the big problems, IMO, is that the surface-world PvE story content is so unchallenging it’s boring. They made it so that someone with an intentionally atrocious build can solo everything that’s required for story progression, which means that anyone who puts the slightest thought into their character will steamroll the game. If I thought that’s all there was to the game, I wouldn’t have played it more than an hour.
Honestly, even the default-difficulty dungeons are lame. There’s technically a story in it, but everyone just rushes through it so fast that you have no idea what’s happening. All you know is that you and your party are sprinting from room to room, wiping out huge groups of enemies just by spamming your most efficient area attack. I play a healer character, a Templar in light armor, and when I do standard difficulty I think I pop a basic heal once the entire time if I’m lucky. Sure, the fast pace is exciting for the first few times, but you catch on at some point to the fact that you’re just mindlessly spamming AOEs every time.
If you actually want a challenging game, you need to do the world bosses, veteran dungeons, and trials. World bosses are technically group content, and there is usually a group running a schedule for the world bosses in each zone, but if you hate those people you can kill them yourself. Veteran dungeons are roughly on the same level of difficulty that WoW dungeons are. I actually have to pay attention to my positioning and resources when I’m in one, which is refreshing. Also nice is that the targeting system works seamlessly with my heals; all I need to do is point at my teammate and hit the spell key, no specific targeting required. It feels like I’m in a combat with magic I can control instead of playing with a UI. But anyway, it’s such a different experience from the default difficulty that I really recommend you try it out. You’ll be fine, I sucked my first few times and I never got vote-kicked or even flamed.
Trials are the one thing I don’t have experience with, and to my knowledge it’s the most challenging content by far. Someone else could tell you more about it, though. I also don’t have a ton of experience with PvP, other than getting ganked in Cyrodiil a few times while looking for delves and a match where I just ran around spamming heals and running away from enemies. My team didn’t win and I didn’t get so much as a single kill, but I got the highest score of anyone in the lobby. Good times.
What a weird read. It’s like 3 separate unrelated random thoughts.
Makes sense. I wouldn’t exactly call Skyrim challenging. It would be crazy for them to put a high barrier to entry on a new genre of game that a lot of long term fans are already hesitant to try