A fair chunk will have come from the US. I would not be surprised to see a 20% drop in the end. Hope this goes somewhere for everyone’s sakes. And as always, avoid signing if you’re not eligible!
You have to input your name, address, and various ways of establishing your EU member state, such as an EU electronic visa/id, or your specific EU state drivers liscence or tax id or some such, and the form makes it very obvious you must actually be an EU citizen.
Examples:
Poland
Portugal
Estonia
Its possible there could be spam or accidental/malformed inputs… but if you are putting fake info into an official government portal, especially en masse, thats potentially a number of crimes, and if its a genuine mistake from an EU citizen, it seems like there is a review process where people will be contacted and allowed to fix up their info.
Also, technically, there are a few countries with more lax submission requirements, such as the Netherlands, likely due to more intense personal privacy laws… but its not like this system is not logging people’s IPs, not like they won’t be taking that into acount.
This isn’t a change.org petition, its an official EU government portal for a core process of democracy.
Knowingly falsifying info on this is again, potentially a large number of crimes, as if you say lied on voting registration, or lied to Social Security or your US state’s unemployment assistance system.
it’s just name/age/address. And I expect a decent chunk to be from outside the US because people are terrible at following directions when an issue pertains to them.
From Belgium it was also necessary to provide your social security number. And as more EU countries are moving towards e-id, I would assume there will be a negligible amount of non-EU signings.
It is. There’s no system to check if signature exists in your country’s ID list. Random number generator +random name generator is enough to “validate” the vote.
some countrie’s id numbers have built in checksums or something similar so it would be trivial to implement code to check if the number can be valid even without having access to the actual database so a random number generator would have to be at least a little bit sophisticated
Huh thats stupid. You would think they have a database which they check a hash against at least or something. For the user it would look like everything is excepted but in the backend they would only count the valid ones so you cant brute force it. But of course governments never think about stuff like this so why did i expect it was like this.
There probably isn’t a central database to verify against so the solution would be to come up with a distributed system where each country implements its own verification process and then implement a standardized messaging structure that all countries would have to use. It would be a significant development effort to make something like that and it probably wouldn’t pay off to if it was made just for citizens initiative. Considering in the last 5 years there has been only 4 (5 if we also count SKG) initiatives that have passed 1 mil it’s probably cheaper to collect all the signatures and then have each country verify the dataset that relates to their country.
Countries probably have something in place that would easily verify a person but it would still take extra effort to make that something work with the system is managing the initiative counting.
It’s simply cheaper to collect all the votes and then do the verification rather than develop integration to verify in real time.
I think it depends on the country. If you click on their instructions for different countries—Itally, for example—they have screenshots that show needing a document number like a Personal ID card.
Are ID Documents numbers validated on submit if you fill the form instead of using eID?
Some countries don’t even have an eID option, and Finland and Ireland don’t even ask for document id.
I feel kinda helpless as an American watching the petition grow. I wonder what would happen if an American petition got big, would corporate America kill it? Would it get traction? Idk…
This isn’t just a change.org petition. In the EU (and a lot of member countries) theres a system for citizens initiatives, which have the same or similar legal weight as laws proposed by legislators.
That doesn’t mean the proposed laws get passed, but it does mean the people can bypass the politicians in order to at least get something onto the starting line.
They had the “We the people” platform, started by Obama. But Trump started ripping it apart, and Biden pulled the plug on his first day in the office.
And even then instead of being people driven, the US administration would choose what they want to address or not. For all the excesses of EU bureaucracy, there are plenty cases like this where it prevents politicians from ignoring people’s concerns; they can still refuse to act, but at least the petition system forces them to go on record.
Some states allow citizens to propose ballot measures if they get enough support, which then get put up to vote in the next election and become law, but both parties hate the practice and fight it wherever they can. No such thing exists at a national level though.
They’d let it grow to near 100% acceptance among relevant groups, then seed articles to split attention and truth, and then buy 60 senators for a bag of bubblegum and two spools of string.
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A fair chunk will have come from the US. I would not be surprised to see a 20% drop in the end. Hope this goes somewhere for everyone’s sakes. And as always, avoid signing if you’re not eligible!
No, no no.
You have to input your name, address, and various ways of establishing your EU member state, such as an EU electronic visa/id, or your specific EU state drivers liscence or tax id or some such, and the form makes it very obvious you must actually be an EU citizen.
Examples:
Poland
Portugal
Estonia
Its possible there could be spam or accidental/malformed inputs… but if you are putting fake info into an official government portal, especially en masse, thats potentially a number of crimes, and if its a genuine mistake from an EU citizen, it seems like there is a review process where people will be contacted and allowed to fix up their info.
Also, technically, there are a few countries with more lax submission requirements, such as the Netherlands, likely due to more intense personal privacy laws… but its not like this system is not logging people’s IPs, not like they won’t be taking that into acount.
This isn’t a change.org petition, its an official EU government portal for a core process of democracy.
Knowingly falsifying info on this is again, potentially a large number of crimes, as if you say lied on voting registration, or lied to Social Security or your US state’s unemployment assistance system.
My understanding is you need to input identification data, like a driver’s license just as an example, to sign.
They expect some invalidating, hence aiming for over the million, but why do you think a “fair chunk” will be from USA specifically?
it’s just name/age/address. And I expect a decent chunk to be from outside the US because people are terrible at following directions when an issue pertains to them.
No, not for the vast majority of EU States, no, it requires an actual official government id like the EU eID, your tax ID number, something like that.
From Belgium it was also necessary to provide your social security number. And as more EU countries are moving towards e-id, I would assume there will be a negligible amount of non-EU signings.
Just logged in via CSAM, didn’t need to take out my eID or enter INSZ.
… dafuq?
https://www.csam.be/en/about-csam.html
Wow, what an unfortunate coincidence. TIL.
For me i had to write my personal number which is not something you could just guess on the fly so i dont think its so easy to fake signatures.
It is. There’s no system to check if signature exists in your country’s ID list. Random number generator +random name generator is enough to “validate” the vote.
some countrie’s id numbers have built in checksums or something similar so it would be trivial to implement code to check if the number can be valid even without having access to the actual database so a random number generator would have to be at least a little bit sophisticated
Huh thats stupid. You would think they have a database which they check a hash against at least or something. For the user it would look like everything is excepted but in the backend they would only count the valid ones so you cant brute force it. But of course governments never think about stuff like this so why did i expect it was like this.
There probably isn’t a central database to verify against so the solution would be to come up with a distributed system where each country implements its own verification process and then implement a standardized messaging structure that all countries would have to use. It would be a significant development effort to make something like that and it probably wouldn’t pay off to if it was made just for citizens initiative. Considering in the last 5 years there has been only 4 (5 if we also count SKG) initiatives that have passed 1 mil it’s probably cheaper to collect all the signatures and then have each country verify the dataset that relates to their country.
I mean countries should have such systems in place. It would make a lot of things easier.
Countries probably have something in place that would easily verify a person but it would still take extra effort to make that something work with the system is managing the initiative counting.
It’s simply cheaper to collect all the votes and then do the verification rather than develop integration to verify in real time.
I think it depends on the country. If you click on their instructions for different countries—Itally, for example—they have screenshots that show needing a document number like a Personal ID card.
More than that, I was asked to login with my electronic identification account
Are ID Documents numbers validated on submit if you fill the form instead of using eID? Some countries don’t even have an eID option, and Finland and Ireland don’t even ask for document id.
I do not know, I cannot sign the petition and just working with the info on the site.
Poland requires DigitalID or PESEL (National Identification Number, kinda like SSN for the yanks) number.
I was asked for my ID number for Portugal.
It’s a popular proposal, and gamers like to game the system.
I feel kinda helpless as an American watching the petition grow. I wonder what would happen if an American petition got big, would corporate America kill it? Would it get traction? Idk…
Does the US have citizens iniatives?
This isn’t just a change.org petition. In the EU (and a lot of member countries) theres a system for citizens initiatives, which have the same or similar legal weight as laws proposed by legislators.
That doesn’t mean the proposed laws get passed, but it does mean the people can bypass the politicians in order to at least get something onto the starting line.
Many US states have official citizens initiatives systems, but not on the Federal level, no.
They had the “We the people” platform, started by Obama. But Trump started ripping it apart, and Biden pulled the plug on his first day in the office.
And even then instead of being people driven, the US administration would choose what they want to address or not. For all the excesses of EU bureaucracy, there are plenty cases like this where it prevents politicians from ignoring people’s concerns; they can still refuse to act, but at least the petition system forces them to go on record.
Some states allow citizens to propose ballot measures if they get enough support, which then get put up to vote in the next election and become law, but both parties hate the practice and fight it wherever they can. No such thing exists at a national level though.
They’d let it grow to near 100% acceptance among relevant groups, then seed articles to split attention and truth, and then buy 60 senators for a bag of bubblegum and two spools of string.
The old senators will think that’s a good deal.