We don’t flock to it, they are forced upon us. Finding TVs that support DP is almost impossible.
One of the biggest problems is that shitty standards use the money they get from licensing the standard to push the standard. Good open standards often don’t have a marketing budget to play with. On top of that, shitty standards can make unrealistic promises to gain an advantage. Like HDMI does with DRM. “If every device uses this standard, piracy will be a thing of the past!”
This ethical position is such crap in the modern era and if you take it you simply aren’t going to be contributing to this conversation much longer. Unless you go full stallman and get a specific laptop from 15 years ago with very specific hardware that you can flash and install very specific software onto it you have to make peace with the fact that as a modern consumer the landscape has fucked you.
Your choices are to moderate how fucked yoh get in terms of anticonsumer bullshit because the market is stacked against you and the illusion of choice is always there. HDMI is a great example, smartphone platforms outside of android and ios is another. Are their options outside of these walled gardens? Technically but they’re generally much worse and often cost more than a comparable model.
It’s just you can refuse to buy an iphone, you can refuse to buy an android, but you can’t really refuse to buy a smartphone in the modern era. You can refuse to buy a tv but you can’t really refuse to buy a display of some kind. You might think you beat the system if you just get a laptop or computer monitor I guess but not really, monitors increasingly don’t have DP and frankly the whole “vote with your wallet” thing is stupid anyway. Consumers are idiots who will continually vote to fuck themselves. We need regulatory oversight.
Quit posting corporate propaganda. The government can regulate all they want. Businesses are malicious and just exploit loopholes everywhere and pay off the politicians. Taking away their motivation is not something they can get around.
You’re saying “'Abolish all money” is anarcho-capitalist propaganda?" LOL, that’s significantly stupider than anything I ever expected to read. Congratulations. 🤡
See how well that has worked over the past 40 years? I mean don’t buy shit you don’t support obviously but don’t expect a personal boycott or even advocating heavily for others to the same to have any kind of impact whatsoever.
It’s because the average consumer is dumb but this isn’t an indictment of the average consumer, necessarily. The average consumer doesn’t want to have to do research on every fucking thing they buy to find out the nefarious bullshit about it. Oh the tv doesn’t support open connection standards, oh my phone is a walled garden built for data collection, oh this smart lightbulb is a privacy nightmare with bullshit tos and also has security issues, etc. They just want to go on amazon or to home depot or whatever and buy shit that looks like it will do what they need for a price point they can afford.
That’s where regulatory oversight comes in: given the above and a consistent lack of consumer ability to enforce standards we need political oversight to pick up the slack. This is a unified arm where a consumer frustration can turn into action much more quickly, even if sales continue because of market fuckery (eg tvs still selling because you can only buy hdmi TVs). But unfortunately we live in a country where the tech industry has performed a near and total regulatory capture and has no fear that regulatory oversight will ever occur, and they’re probably right, at least for now.
So you’re wrong that it’s the only way, and I would argue it’s the most ineffective and inefficient way. It just feels like it’s the only way because of our failed state political situation where even a regulatory concern that should be a slam dunk like right to repair often either fails or only passes in a greatly neutered state because the local politicians thought Microsoft and Apple made some great points about preventing local jobs so that tech billionaires could continue to make even more money
See how well that has worked over the past 40 years?
…extremely well? Can you provide an example of the contrary?
don’t expect a personal boycott or even advocating heavily for others to the same to have any kind of impact whatsoever.
…of course a single person boycotting a product does nothing. People educating themselves about the products they buy and making conscious decisions to buy consumer-friendly products when buying shit (especially expensive shit) does.
They just want to go on amazon or to home depot or whatever and buy shit that looks like it will do what they need for a price point they can afford.
Plenty of people know and just don’t care. I know because I have these types of conversations all the time.
That’s where regulatory oversight comes in
See how well that has worked over the past 2000 years?
As to other reply: what times has vote with your wallet truly worked? Especially in terms of anti consumer decisions and not just culture war bullshit where the sales trends are almost always temporary and linked to collective groups that apply pressure onto retailers.
People educating themselves doesn’t happen, is the point. People don’t want to do this about every fucking thing. You’re on lemmy. You’re a fucking nerd. I’m not disparaging you, I’m here too. I like researching my product purchases and I get angry about this shit. But my partner? My parents? My neighbors? My siblings? Most of the people I work with? They don’t give a fuck. They don’t want to be bothered. They want to just buy a tv and watch it. We are the minority.
This pipe dream that an overwhelming majority of consumers will suddenly become extremely conscious and educated is, at best, misguided. So let’s say you set up the framework for it: it’s already mostly there, obviously, since you and I can find this info. But then you need to address why most people don’t care. Education? Resources? Other systemic issues? Good luck doing that on a timeline that isn’t generational. In the meantime big tech tightens their stranglehold significantly on the systems that control the majority of the fucking world.
I have seen how regulatory oversight can work. It’s a fight and a battle to keep it working, of course, with constant attacks. That’s why regulatory states that have seen some success, like the EU, are failing, and others that are seeing increasing success, like China, are demonized continually even though they are quickly outranking the USA in almost every major quality of life metric
As to other reply: what times has vote with your wallet truly worked?
Already answered this several times, including the comment you just replied to.
People educating themselves doesn’t happen, is the point.
Yes, that is indeed the point.
This pipe dream that an overwhelming majority of consumers will suddenly become extremely conscious and educated is, at best, misguided.
That doesn’t make anything I said untrue.
others that are seeing increasing success, like China, are demonized continually even though they are quickly outranking the USA in almost every major quality of life metric
You think China, of all places, is making consumer-focused and ethical products?
China sees increasing success because they have no minimum wage and no concept of IP. So the world outsourced vast swathes of production infrastructure there only to have all their IP stolen and reproduced without any of the R&D costs. Then the government sudsidizes it to hell even further so that they can apply the Amazon model of enshittification to the global economy.
As end consumers we individually have no power to affect the types of products that are offered. What am I supposed to do? Find me a TV that supports DisplayPort
That’s great for you, but try to convince one other person who’s not already in your headspace they should not buy any more TVs. That’s almost an impossible ask. Like telling someone not to get an Android or iPhone because of the data collection. Geeks like us can put up with these inconveniences but we’re a very small minority.
People are still going to get the product unless there’s a truly viable alternative available. Until we see a new standard whose goal is to specifically target replacing HDMI in this context, there’s not really any way to suggest people “vote with their wallet” on something as common as HDMI.
I’m not sure what that has to do with what I said. This is about corporations asking consumers to bend over and get fucked, and consumers as a whole repeatedly lining up to take it.
They’re not lining up to take it though. It’s all they’re given. When HDMI was new, most people skipped component cables entirely and went straight from 480i analog to 720p digital overnight and the only way to do that at the time was HDMI. Years and years later, we still only have HDMI and DP as the two standards and they’re not putting the alternative on TVs.
The consumer does have the responsibility to make the choice, but only when those choices are actually presented to them. If there were DP TVs as available options, I’d agree with your point, but I’m not about to ask my friends to boycott HDMI TVs anytime soon because I know all it will do is inconvenience them and it won’t make a lick of difference in the market.
No one is saying it’s great. But that’s the point. You have to choose between convenience and getting fucked. And overwhelmingly people will choose the former. And that’s what they’re counting on.
Choose the latter and those stupid fucking companies are forced to bend to your will and then you can buy whatever fuckin TV you want.
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It’s wild how much we flock around such shitty standards all the time, generation after generation.
We don’t flock to it, they are forced upon us. Finding TVs that support DP is almost impossible.
One of the biggest problems is that shitty standards use the money they get from licensing the standard to push the standard. Good open standards often don’t have a marketing budget to play with. On top of that, shitty standards can make unrealistic promises to gain an advantage. Like HDMI does with DRM. “If every device uses this standard, piracy will be a thing of the past!”
Yes, that is what I meant, the ‘we’ used like an alien might observe us.
Theoretically we could stop buying TVs, but practically we are forced into it by supply.
And yes, licencing a standard beyond dev should be just illegal, it hurts (almost) everyone.
Nothing is forced on anyone. If people refused to buy them they would be forced to add other ports.
However as someone who considers themselves fairly techy and doesn’t comply with such shitfuckery, I only learned about this last week.
Moving forward I just won’t be buying any TVs at all.
This ethical position is such crap in the modern era and if you take it you simply aren’t going to be contributing to this conversation much longer. Unless you go full stallman and get a specific laptop from 15 years ago with very specific hardware that you can flash and install very specific software onto it you have to make peace with the fact that as a modern consumer the landscape has fucked you.
Your choices are to moderate how fucked yoh get in terms of anticonsumer bullshit because the market is stacked against you and the illusion of choice is always there. HDMI is a great example, smartphone platforms outside of android and ios is another. Are their options outside of these walled gardens? Technically but they’re generally much worse and often cost more than a comparable model.
It’s just you can refuse to buy an iphone, you can refuse to buy an android, but you can’t really refuse to buy a smartphone in the modern era. You can refuse to buy a tv but you can’t really refuse to buy a display of some kind. You might think you beat the system if you just get a laptop or computer monitor I guess but not really, monitors increasingly don’t have DP and frankly the whole “vote with your wallet” thing is stupid anyway. Consumers are idiots who will continually vote to fuck themselves. We need regulatory oversight.
Voting with your wallet is literally the only way things will ever improve.
Quit posting ancap propaganda.
The way this sort of thing would actually improve is by government regulation.
Quit posting corporate propaganda. The government can regulate all they want. Businesses are malicious and just exploit loopholes everywhere and pay off the politicians. Taking away their motivation is not something they can get around.
“Vote with your wallet” is not ancap propaganda. “Abolish all money” is.
You’re saying “'Abolish all money” is anarcho-capitalist propaganda?" LOL, that’s significantly stupider than anything I ever expected to read. Congratulations. 🤡
What? Ancaps absolutely want money. communists don’t
See how well that has worked over the past 40 years? I mean don’t buy shit you don’t support obviously but don’t expect a personal boycott or even advocating heavily for others to the same to have any kind of impact whatsoever.
It’s because the average consumer is dumb but this isn’t an indictment of the average consumer, necessarily. The average consumer doesn’t want to have to do research on every fucking thing they buy to find out the nefarious bullshit about it. Oh the tv doesn’t support open connection standards, oh my phone is a walled garden built for data collection, oh this smart lightbulb is a privacy nightmare with bullshit tos and also has security issues, etc. They just want to go on amazon or to home depot or whatever and buy shit that looks like it will do what they need for a price point they can afford.
That’s where regulatory oversight comes in: given the above and a consistent lack of consumer ability to enforce standards we need political oversight to pick up the slack. This is a unified arm where a consumer frustration can turn into action much more quickly, even if sales continue because of market fuckery (eg tvs still selling because you can only buy hdmi TVs). But unfortunately we live in a country where the tech industry has performed a near and total regulatory capture and has no fear that regulatory oversight will ever occur, and they’re probably right, at least for now.
So you’re wrong that it’s the only way, and I would argue it’s the most ineffective and inefficient way. It just feels like it’s the only way because of our failed state political situation where even a regulatory concern that should be a slam dunk like right to repair often either fails or only passes in a greatly neutered state because the local politicians thought Microsoft and Apple made some great points about preventing local jobs so that tech billionaires could continue to make even more money
…extremely well? Can you provide an example of the contrary?
…of course a single person boycotting a product does nothing. People educating themselves about the products they buy and making conscious decisions to buy consumer-friendly products when buying shit (especially expensive shit) does.
Plenty of people know and just don’t care. I know because I have these types of conversations all the time.
See how well that has worked over the past 2000 years?
As to other reply: what times has vote with your wallet truly worked? Especially in terms of anti consumer decisions and not just culture war bullshit where the sales trends are almost always temporary and linked to collective groups that apply pressure onto retailers.
People educating themselves doesn’t happen, is the point. People don’t want to do this about every fucking thing. You’re on lemmy. You’re a fucking nerd. I’m not disparaging you, I’m here too. I like researching my product purchases and I get angry about this shit. But my partner? My parents? My neighbors? My siblings? Most of the people I work with? They don’t give a fuck. They don’t want to be bothered. They want to just buy a tv and watch it. We are the minority.
This pipe dream that an overwhelming majority of consumers will suddenly become extremely conscious and educated is, at best, misguided. So let’s say you set up the framework for it: it’s already mostly there, obviously, since you and I can find this info. But then you need to address why most people don’t care. Education? Resources? Other systemic issues? Good luck doing that on a timeline that isn’t generational. In the meantime big tech tightens their stranglehold significantly on the systems that control the majority of the fucking world.
I have seen how regulatory oversight can work. It’s a fight and a battle to keep it working, of course, with constant attacks. That’s why regulatory states that have seen some success, like the EU, are failing, and others that are seeing increasing success, like China, are demonized continually even though they are quickly outranking the USA in almost every major quality of life metric
Already answered this several times, including the comment you just replied to.
Yes, that is indeed the point.
That doesn’t make anything I said untrue.
You think China, of all places, is making consumer-focused and ethical products?
China sees increasing success because they have no minimum wage and no concept of IP. So the world outsourced vast swathes of production infrastructure there only to have all their IP stolen and reproduced without any of the R&D costs. Then the government sudsidizes it to hell even further so that they can apply the Amazon model of enshittification to the global economy.
Can you provide evidence of it working extremely well?
This is my response, how often do companies acquiesce to consumer pressure in any meaningful way? This is like asking to prove a negative
Every time ever? How about Disney getting mass subscription cancellations after canning Kimmy Kimmel?
They can’t sell shit that people don’t buy.
This explains so much why actual voting numbers are so poor in the US…
…wat
Well, apparently in your opinion, money is the only way to have effective change in the world. Any other attempt to do so will fail miserably.
It’s not the only way to affect change. It is the only way to make businesses respect their customers. What is your point?
The only way? Literally?
Yes, that’s what I said.
As end consumers we individually have no power to affect the types of products that are offered. What am I supposed to do? Find me a TV that supports DisplayPort
Individually, no. Collectively? Yes.
Don’t buy a TV? They are increasingly shitty products anyway.
That’s great for you, but try to convince one other person who’s not already in your headspace they should not buy any more TVs. That’s almost an impossible ask. Like telling someone not to get an Android or iPhone because of the data collection. Geeks like us can put up with these inconveniences but we’re a very small minority.
People are still going to get the product unless there’s a truly viable alternative available. Until we see a new standard whose goal is to specifically target replacing HDMI in this context, there’s not really any way to suggest people “vote with their wallet” on something as common as HDMI.
I’m not sure what that has to do with what I said. This is about corporations asking consumers to bend over and get fucked, and consumers as a whole repeatedly lining up to take it.
They’re not lining up to take it though. It’s all they’re given. When HDMI was new, most people skipped component cables entirely and went straight from 480i analog to 720p digital overnight and the only way to do that at the time was HDMI. Years and years later, we still only have HDMI and DP as the two standards and they’re not putting the alternative on TVs.
The consumer does have the responsibility to make the choice, but only when those choices are actually presented to them. If there were DP TVs as available options, I’d agree with your point, but I’m not about to ask my friends to boycott HDMI TVs anytime soon because I know all it will do is inconvenience them and it won’t make a lick of difference in the market.
They are though.
Then they can choose not to buy anything, or to buy a computer monitor.
This is the defeatist mentality that keeps them so successful.
Okay sure
No one is saying it’s great. But that’s the point. You have to choose between convenience and getting fucked. And overwhelmingly people will choose the former. And that’s what they’re counting on.
Choose the latter and those stupid fucking companies are forced to bend to your will and then you can buy whatever fuckin TV you want.
Now if you could just convince the rest of the country to not have a TV in every room of their houses.
You wouldn’t have to. Even a small fraction would create a market vacuum for a competitor.
Nobody is gonna watch a vacuum buddy not even a fancy dyson.
Hehe
BFGs with display port do exist as a viable replacement for a TV, but they’re expensive and kinda niche.