The Petitions Committee (the group of MPs who oversee the petitions system) has considered the Government’s response to this petition. They felt the response did not respond directly to the request of the petition. They have therefore asked the Government to provide a revised response.
When the Committee receives a revised response from the Government, we will publish this and share it with you.
Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament
I’m curious on how signers of this petition think companies could afford to do this. Often times shutting a game down is because the interest of players has waned. Making a law to require them to keep that server and software running…forever? Is the end goal to kill any online game development?
It would make sense to require a company to release the code for players to host their own servers, which has been done by many games in the past. Not to continue to run it themselves.
It’s true it does cost to keep things running. But like you say there are ways around this to push server costs onto players, or simply allow offline play with online features disabled.
I think if there were legislation in place then design decisions would adapt. If it were costly to just shut a game down abruptly, there would be player hosted options in place from the start and ideally less spurious “always online” requirements woven into the fabric of every game.
Looking at the petition itself it wasn’t very specific on the terms, which is why I questioned the very broadness of the request . “Keep” implies maintaining how it is currently, not a transition to open source and player run.
The company will have the make that decision then, if it means opening the server for use or patching the game for local p2p play then so be it. Otherwise they should be forced to state the game is a rental not purchased if it requires a server that may shut down.
Otherwise they should be forced to state the game is a rental not purchased if it requires a server that may shut down.
But that is what they already do. Currently this might be hidden in the EULA, that no one reads, but even making this plainly visible during purchase wouldn’t change much. I is not like the players have much choice when they want to play that specific game.
I think part of the next phase is to force the companies to list a minimum supported life span, I think the average length a game is supported for now days is around two years, so if the game isn’t kept alive the minimum listed time you get a refund but if the life span of the game is listed too short then people will be less likely to spend money on it
That’s sort of what they do, except they still call it a purchase. I’ve never seen the word ‘rental’ on any game store. They shouldn’t be allowed to even call it a purchase if it isn’t one.
This is why we got Stadia. Imagine Netflix where you pay a monthly fee and still have to buy all the movies and shows at full price. That was Stadia’s model.
Thos erodes the concept of ownership so that it is substituted for rental, without stating that clearly. Stadia failed but in doing so it probably helped Microsoft figure out how to eventually get away with doing the exact same thing.
Games should clearly say if you’re basically renting them, not have it buried in the EULA. Let publishers full price and let consumers decide if they are prepared to live with it.
It would make sense to require a company to release the code for players to host their own servers, which has been done by many games in the past. Not to continue to run it themselves.
That counts as “working state”, assuming the published code is reasonable to operate (it must be FOSS, or at least permit open modification and distribution; and it must run in a server with specs that’s reasonable to have at the time of game publication)
It would make sense to require a company to release the code for players to host their own servers, which has been done by many games in the past. Not to continue to run it themselves.
That’s basically what people are asking for. Instead of not being playable anymore, give consumers the means to keep it going for themselves.
This could mean always-online having to be gutted from the game after it’s support ends so you can play it offline. Or server hosting files to host your own private or public server.
The goal is to have games not be impossible to play after X amount of time. How companies reach that goal is up to them.
Ross and the team have been very specific about not wanting to force companies to pay for server infrastructure forever.
They’ve said quite a few times that what they want is for game companies to at least patch their games so they can keep running without the online connection or provide players the tools to host their own servers so that the company can end support without the game becoming a brick.
Hopefully by requiring games to be playable after support ends and the servers shut down it will also change the way games are made so that they no longer require the constant connection.
I would also wonder how this would work with MMOs where the server side, both in processing power and in bandwidth, is not insignificant. I mean I suppose “are required to publish the code, no requirement that it’s feasible for others to run” but…yeah.
He talks about that. I think the gist is that a lot of games that are online services could run locally, the publisher just chooses not to. That’s why Ross chose the Crew 2 as his hill to die on: there’s evidence that an offline does/did exist and just wasn’t enabled. That’s a practice that needs to be challenged.
The argument goes that a game that relies on server side technology to run in any form shouldn’t be sold as a product that you can own. This needs to be reflected in the price and licensing model. That seems fair.
The big question is why TF we’re at a point where a company should be allowed to sell you a product and say you own it then remove your right to use the product arbitrarily. I bet there’s IP in the server side code, but having a system where a corporation’s IP and ability to make money from the IP is more important that the concept of ownership is deeply fucked up.
Technology Tangents did a video where a game he bought on CD and tried to play on period-correct hardware won’t run because there was DRM that called a server to check the date and to make sure it wasn’t leaked early. Decades after the release, the server is gone and the game can’t run, ironically, because it’s so far outside of its release date. That’s the kind of bullshit that absolutely shouldn’t be tolerated.
I’m aware of good old fashioned multiplayer where an average Pentium 2 rig has enough grunt to host a multiplayer session and be one of the client machines, obviously games of that scale should be able to be run by enthusiasts. I’m talking about, what if something like WoW shuts down?
Wow private servers aren’t uncommon, although I do think they violate the TOS as it stands. I imagine people would continue to use those in the event blizzard shuts the official servers down.
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I’m curious on how signers of this petition think companies could afford to do this. Often times shutting a game down is because the interest of players has waned. Making a law to require them to keep that server and software running…forever? Is the end goal to kill any online game development?
It would make sense to require a company to release the code for players to host their own servers, which has been done by many games in the past. Not to continue to run it themselves.
It’s true it does cost to keep things running. But like you say there are ways around this to push server costs onto players, or simply allow offline play with online features disabled.
I think if there were legislation in place then design decisions would adapt. If it were costly to just shut a game down abruptly, there would be player hosted options in place from the start and ideally less spurious “always online” requirements woven into the fabric of every game.
Who says the companies need to keep the servers running? The petition is “to keep games in a working state”.
Looking at the petition itself it wasn’t very specific on the terms, which is why I questioned the very broadness of the request . “Keep” implies maintaining how it is currently, not a transition to open source and player run.
Being vague about the requirement leaves more options for game companies to find various solutions to comply. It’s quite accommodating.
Totally agree. You always leave yourself room to negotiate down.
Imagine not supporting this because you think it’s unfair to the industry, given the very specific examples that have been given.
I can still play ut from like 20 odd yrs ago the choice yo take away hosting your own games was their choice.
The company will have the make that decision then, if it means opening the server for use or patching the game for local p2p play then so be it. Otherwise they should be forced to state the game is a rental not purchased if it requires a server that may shut down.
deleted by creator
But that is what they already do. Currently this might be hidden in the EULA, that no one reads, but even making this plainly visible during purchase wouldn’t change much. I is not like the players have much choice when they want to play that specific game.
I think part of the next phase is to force the companies to list a minimum supported life span, I think the average length a game is supported for now days is around two years, so if the game isn’t kept alive the minimum listed time you get a refund but if the life span of the game is listed too short then people will be less likely to spend money on it
That’s sort of what they do, except they still call it a purchase. I’ve never seen the word ‘rental’ on any game store. They shouldn’t be allowed to even call it a purchase if it isn’t one.
This is why we got Stadia. Imagine Netflix where you pay a monthly fee and still have to buy all the movies and shows at full price. That was Stadia’s model.
Thos erodes the concept of ownership so that it is substituted for rental, without stating that clearly. Stadia failed but in doing so it probably helped Microsoft figure out how to eventually get away with doing the exact same thing.
Games should clearly say if you’re basically renting them, not have it buried in the EULA. Let publishers full price and let consumers decide if they are prepared to live with it.
If they no longer want to host and run servers, they should release the tools to allow the community to take over
That counts as “working state”, assuming the published code is reasonable to operate (it must be FOSS, or at least permit open modification and distribution; and it must run in a server with specs that’s reasonable to have at the time of game publication)
That’s basically what people are asking for. Instead of not being playable anymore, give consumers the means to keep it going for themselves.
This could mean always-online having to be gutted from the game after it’s support ends so you can play it offline. Or server hosting files to host your own private or public server.
The goal is to have games not be impossible to play after X amount of time. How companies reach that goal is up to them.
Probably the way they used to do things, provide the server hosting tools to the community.
Think like TF2 and CS:S.
There’s plenty (But not all) MP games that can do that.
Ross and the team have been very specific about not wanting to force companies to pay for server infrastructure forever.
They’ve said quite a few times that what they want is for game companies to at least patch their games so they can keep running without the online connection or provide players the tools to host their own servers so that the company can end support without the game becoming a brick.
Hopefully by requiring games to be playable after support ends and the servers shut down it will also change the way games are made so that they no longer require the constant connection.
I would also wonder how this would work with MMOs where the server side, both in processing power and in bandwidth, is not insignificant. I mean I suppose “are required to publish the code, no requirement that it’s feasible for others to run” but…yeah.
He talks about that. I think the gist is that a lot of games that are online services could run locally, the publisher just chooses not to. That’s why Ross chose the Crew 2 as his hill to die on: there’s evidence that an offline does/did exist and just wasn’t enabled. That’s a practice that needs to be challenged.
The argument goes that a game that relies on server side technology to run in any form shouldn’t be sold as a product that you can own. This needs to be reflected in the price and licensing model. That seems fair.
The big question is why TF we’re at a point where a company should be allowed to sell you a product and say you own it then remove your right to use the product arbitrarily. I bet there’s IP in the server side code, but having a system where a corporation’s IP and ability to make money from the IP is more important that the concept of ownership is deeply fucked up.
Technology Tangents did a video where a game he bought on CD and tried to play on period-correct hardware won’t run because there was DRM that called a server to check the date and to make sure it wasn’t leaked early. Decades after the release, the server is gone and the game can’t run, ironically, because it’s so far outside of its release date. That’s the kind of bullshit that absolutely shouldn’t be tolerated.
You must not have been born during LAN party era where everybody’s PC was physicaly connected to each other.
I’m aware of good old fashioned multiplayer where an average Pentium 2 rig has enough grunt to host a multiplayer session and be one of the client machines, obviously games of that scale should be able to be run by enthusiasts. I’m talking about, what if something like WoW shuts down?
Wow private servers aren’t uncommon, although I do think they violate the TOS as it stands. I imagine people would continue to use those in the event blizzard shuts the official servers down.