Hello all, this is the first post in a series of posts I’ll be making weekly to drum up some diverse discussion relating to all different aspects of gaming. I figured I would start with what I know, and so the first topic is thus: roguelike games. (If you think any of the below description is wrong or misleading, let me know - that’s part of the discussion!)
The name of this genre is derived from the game Rogue, released in 1980. The exact definition of a roguelike has been a topic of discussion for a long time, but the core tenets are usually agreed upon to be random/procedural generation and permanent death (no saving and continuing a run, you have to start over). Many roguelikes have an additional increased focus on collecting items and assembling a “build” over the course of a run. A “pure” roguelike is often claimed to have no meta-progression (that is, no procedural unlocks) and focus more on the journey than the destination - seeing how far you can get, or how high a score you can achieve, rather than reaching a distinct victory condition (not that these games don’t have victory conditions, but that it isn’t the end-all-be-all). The secondary term “roguelite” is often brought out to describe games that deviate from this. Additionally, the term “traditional roguelike” is sometimes employed to indicate a more strict adherence to the older style of this genre, with grid-based dungeon crawling and high complexity. Ultimately, as with a lot of genres, pinning down a 100% ironclad definition is near impossible, but most people that like this type of game could tell you the general “vibe” at a glance.
Here are some questions and subtopics that I encourage people to discuss:
What are some of your favorite examples of roguelike games?
What roguelike games do you think stand out in terms of defying the conventions of the genre?
Do you find there to be a meaningful difference between the usage of “roguelike” and “roguelite” nowadays? Which do you prefer? Where does the “traditional roguelike” fit into this?
Do you continue to play roguelike games after reaching the “end” / reaching 100% completion? Why, or why not?
What other genre do you most often enjoy seeing paired with roguelike?
Is any game with procedural generation and a run-based structure a roguelike, or is there more to it? Where do you personally draw the line?
What have been some of your best runs across all roguelike games? What’s been memorable?
Are there any upcoming roguelike games you’re excited for?
Also feel free to bring up anything you like related to the topic! If you have suggestions for future discussion topics, leave them in the suggestion thread.
Loved this one too. It’s a first person space dogfight simulator with a few secrets and an enjoyable progression as you move through your first full run and then subsequent runs after you learn the twist.
I love roguelites and the genre melding you can do with them. I’ve been searching for one that competes with Risk of Rain 2 for me. I’ve played all the big ones but none have had the same staying power.
The biggest bummer for me is Dead Cells. For most of the run, I slaughter. First two original bosses I can pretty consistently no-hit. Then I get to the hand of the king and die in about 5 seconds every. Single. Time. It’s 100% a skill issue but I feel it just asks so much of me compared to the rest of the game on the same difficulty, and I’m only on boss cell 1. I’ve even gone I to the training mode vs him and his tells paired with my time to respond just have not clicked.
There’s also Enter the Gungeon. I also have struggled with it but actively plan to get back into it to work through it.
Lastly, shutout to Dicey Dungeons. It’s lesser known and I think everyone should play it.
I played Rogue a lot back in the day. Also Hack a bit.
Shattered Pixel Dungeon is a fantastic roguelike. I’ve been playing it for years. The developer is great about updating it and adding new content and adjusting the mechanics. There is a community for Pixel Dungeon over at [email protected]
Proper link structure for a Lemmy community is [email protected] - this should work!
And I also have played SPD quite a lot. Despite it being free, I tossed the developer a couple dollars - they’ve been doing great work with it, a whole new class was added not too long ago. I’m only now picking it up again after some time, and I’ve only beaten the game with 2/5 characters, so I got a lot to learn to get good at it again.
It’s a tough game. I managed to beat it with all 5 characters, but that took a while. Now I’m working on beating it with all 9 challenges enabled. I’m dying so much 😭
I concur, too. So far, I have conquered said dungeon with at least 3 character types in 6 differing runs; the most fun I had fun so far was the Huntress herself, for in one of those winning run, I chose the Warden’s path, coupled with the Nature’s Wrath armor upgrade. It made most of the lower levels bloom in grass and all sorts of seeds that probably upped my farming time by a couple of turns.
Such a badass force-of-nature run that was.
Also, Sprouted PD has a sublevel every 5th or 6th where it’s all hidden forest and mobs.
The allure comes from either knowing that you can beat the game in any run, you just need to work for it, or in trying to gather enough resources to enable you to win the game on a future run (this is a staple of roguelites). The latter can get boring if the game isn’t balanced just so, I admit. Additionally, if a game is very complex and well put together, just the fun of duking it out may be enough, win condition be damned.
Before I get into curmudgeon mode, I want to plug my two favorite roguelikes:
Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Zombie/sci-fi apocalypse survival roguelike with a bonkers level of depth to it. It’s very actively developed, and the devs are constantly adding more stuff to it. They also have their own lemmy instance at cdda.social.
Doom Roguelike - Perfectly encapsulates the early Doom games in roguelike form. This one is on the opposite end of the complexity spectrum from CDDA. Much simpler gameplay, though still highly tactical and challenging when you crank the difficulty up. The same author has created a spiritual successor, Jupiter Hell. I haven’t logged enough hours for it to supplant DoomRL’s position yet, but I do have to say that the atmosphere of it is fucking amazing.
With that out of the way, let’s move on to “old man yells at Rogue Legacy”:
The term “roguelike” has been stretched to the point of uselessness, often for marketing purposes. This necessitated the introduction of the term “traditional roguelike” for those of us that still want to discuss actual roguelikes. Binding of Isaac, Dwarf Fortess (fortress mode), Dead Cells, and Slay the Spire are all excellent games, but they’re not roguelikes in any useful sense. If I’m looking for games that are “like Rogue”, none of those are good suggestions. Moria, Nethack, Pixel Dungeon, DCSS, and DoomRL are.
Cataclysm: DDA occupies a bit of a weird space here. It fits within the technical definition of a traditional roguelike, but the overall experience is more of a departure from Rogue than other traditional roguelikes are. It’s almost more akin to Minecraft or Terraria, in that you face dangers to gather resources to create items to face bigger dangers to gather more exotic resources to create more powerful items… and so on. I sometimes refer to this type of roguelike as “neotraditional”, in order to acknowledge this departure.
Before anyone accuses me of being prescriptivist, sometimes prescriptivism is important. I’m not for haranguing people over every terminological deviation, but some terms are unique and useful, and we should try not to muddy them. “Begs the question” and “reactionary” come to mind. “Roguelike” was one, but it’s pretty far gone at this point.
The trouble with “gamelike” as a descriptor is really well illustrated here. People will always disagree on how alike the games have to be for it to fit or what particular things it needs to do the same to match, while others will argue that something they play feels likegame so it is now gamelike.
Early roguelike games took something rogue did first (repeating often procedural gameplay that at least mostly resets on death) and often ignored other aspects. Arguing about what exact criteria necessary or sufficient to make a game roguelike is like arguing whether a song counts as “punk” or “pop” or “metal”. Different people will feel like it does or doesn’t fit into any particular category for one or another reason, but ultimately the categories exist because some people put things in them and that’s it.
NetHack. With the ASCII graphics. And not because I’m hardcore, I’m actually really bad at it. And I hate the item identification mechanic. But there’s something magical about this game. It feels alive, and the ASCII graphics give it a mystery that can’t be matched by visual spectacles. Idk it’s hard to explain, it’s like a love hate relationship
I found myself really invested in Into the Breach because canonically every run you do is a different timeline so you have to fight just as hard each time and it un incentivises just restarting because you would be abandoning the humans to a grisly death. The mechanic where you can bring one pilot with you is great too.
Speaking of subset games, FTL and especially the mod FTL Multiverse have been very fun.
Nobody here is talking about Risk Of Rain 2. This shit is really perfect if you have a “Goopy Goblin Gamer Brain ™”. Non-stop action and item combination is just wild.
It’s also the most fun co-op roguelike out there. There’s an incredible modding community and it’s easy to drop in and play with others. It’s also not a super hard game to wrap your head around so there wouldn’t be a massive skill gap for new players vs veterans.
Me and my friends have had our fill over the last few years but there really hasn’t been another game to replace it.
I started playing roguelikes with flash Binding of Isaac I bought for 99p in a steam sale, pre-Wrath of the Lamb. I’m still playing Rebirth and its expansions well over a decade later. I’d describe it as the perfect game. Why it shines as opposed where other great roguelites don’t is because of how the items interact with each other. The interaction is key. It’s still pure joy to walk into a room and absolutely melt everything in a second because of a synergy you’ve never seen. And now I think about it, what really makes the roguelike genre a favourite of mine is where every run is a challenge from the game: break me. I’d point at Noita as another game with this philosophy. Being given a random selection of tools and trying to cobble them together into something unstoppable.
I like the more platformer style rogue-lites, a couple favorites that haven’t been mentioned yet are 20XX (rogue-lite tribute/spiritual successor to Mega Man X) and Rogue Legacy (first rogue-lite I ever played, perhaps not as hard as others). For top-down ones I had a bit of fun with Wizard of Legend as well. Never have beaten a roguelike/-lite, but I’ve gotten a decent way into each of the above.
I enjoyed Hades more than FTL and Sts, because of the story progression between runs. Seems like I prefer roguelite than. I’m wondering, if Vampire Survivors is still in this genre with it’s 30 min gameplay loop.
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I really enjoyed Everspace. Space-shooter roguelite.
Loved this one too. It’s a first person space dogfight simulator with a few secrets and an enjoyable progression as you move through your first full run and then subsequent runs after you learn the twist.
I love roguelites and the genre melding you can do with them. I’ve been searching for one that competes with Risk of Rain 2 for me. I’ve played all the big ones but none have had the same staying power.
The biggest bummer for me is Dead Cells. For most of the run, I slaughter. First two original bosses I can pretty consistently no-hit. Then I get to the hand of the king and die in about 5 seconds every. Single. Time. It’s 100% a skill issue but I feel it just asks so much of me compared to the rest of the game on the same difficulty, and I’m only on boss cell 1. I’ve even gone I to the training mode vs him and his tells paired with my time to respond just have not clicked.
There’s also Enter the Gungeon. I also have struggled with it but actively plan to get back into it to work through it.
Lastly, shutout to Dicey Dungeons. It’s lesser known and I think everyone should play it.
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Dungeon crawl stone soup. Vampire summoner or octopus berserker?
Hadn’t heard of this one! I’m gonna have to check it out.
Thanks for adding the link!
I played Rogue a lot back in the day. Also Hack a bit.
Shattered Pixel Dungeon is a fantastic roguelike. I’ve been playing it for years. The developer is great about updating it and adding new content and adjusting the mechanics. There is a community for Pixel Dungeon over at [email protected]
Proper link structure for a Lemmy community is [email protected] - this should work!
And I also have played SPD quite a lot. Despite it being free, I tossed the developer a couple dollars - they’ve been doing great work with it, a whole new class was added not too long ago. I’m only now picking it up again after some time, and I’ve only beaten the game with 2/5 characters, so I got a lot to learn to get good at it again.
Thank you! Fixed my link.
It’s a tough game. I managed to beat it with all 5 characters, but that took a while. Now I’m working on beating it with all 9 challenges enabled. I’m dying so much 😭
I concur, too. So far, I have conquered said dungeon with at least 3 character types in 6 differing runs; the most fun I had fun so far was the Huntress herself, for in one of those winning run, I chose the Warden’s path, coupled with the Nature’s Wrath armor upgrade. It made most of the lower levels bloom in grass and all sorts of seeds that probably upped my farming time by a couple of turns.
Such a badass force-of-nature run that was.
Also, Sprouted PD has a sublevel every 5th or 6th where it’s all hidden forest and mobs.
Sprouted PD is great! Lots of fun if you enioy grinding. The Wand of Amok is great in the lower levels.
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Losing over and over to a slightly different map is not replay value it’s padding time out
The allure comes from either knowing that you can beat the game in any run, you just need to work for it, or in trying to gather enough resources to enable you to win the game on a future run (this is a staple of roguelites). The latter can get boring if the game isn’t balanced just so, I admit. Additionally, if a game is very complex and well put together, just the fun of duking it out may be enough, win condition be damned.
Before I get into curmudgeon mode, I want to plug my two favorite roguelikes:
With that out of the way, let’s move on to “old man yells at Rogue Legacy”:
The term “roguelike” has been stretched to the point of uselessness, often for marketing purposes. This necessitated the introduction of the term “traditional roguelike” for those of us that still want to discuss actual roguelikes. Binding of Isaac, Dwarf Fortess (fortress mode), Dead Cells, and Slay the Spire are all excellent games, but they’re not roguelikes in any useful sense. If I’m looking for games that are “like Rogue”, none of those are good suggestions. Moria, Nethack, Pixel Dungeon, DCSS, and DoomRL are.
Cataclysm: DDA occupies a bit of a weird space here. It fits within the technical definition of a traditional roguelike, but the overall experience is more of a departure from Rogue than other traditional roguelikes are. It’s almost more akin to Minecraft or Terraria, in that you face dangers to gather resources to create items to face bigger dangers to gather more exotic resources to create more powerful items… and so on. I sometimes refer to this type of roguelike as “neotraditional”, in order to acknowledge this departure.
Before anyone accuses me of being prescriptivist, sometimes prescriptivism is important. I’m not for haranguing people over every terminological deviation, but some terms are unique and useful, and we should try not to muddy them. “Begs the question” and “reactionary” come to mind. “Roguelike” was one, but it’s pretty far gone at this point.
The trouble with “gamelike” as a descriptor is really well illustrated here. People will always disagree on how alike the games have to be for it to fit or what particular things it needs to do the same to match, while others will argue that something they play feels like game so it is now gamelike.
Early roguelike games took something rogue did first (repeating often procedural gameplay that at least mostly resets on death) and often ignored other aspects. Arguing about what exact criteria necessary or sufficient to make a game roguelike is like arguing whether a song counts as “punk” or “pop” or “metal”. Different people will feel like it does or doesn’t fit into any particular category for one or another reason, but ultimately the categories exist because some people put things in them and that’s it.
NetHack. With the ASCII graphics. And not because I’m hardcore, I’m actually really bad at it. And I hate the item identification mechanic. But there’s something magical about this game. It feels alive, and the ASCII graphics give it a mystery that can’t be matched by visual spectacles. Idk it’s hard to explain, it’s like a love hate relationship
I found myself really invested in Into the Breach because canonically every run you do is a different timeline so you have to fight just as hard each time and it un incentivises just restarting because you would be abandoning the humans to a grisly death. The mechanic where you can bring one pilot with you is great too.
Speaking of subset games, FTL and especially the mod FTL Multiverse have been very fun.
Nobody here is talking about Risk Of Rain 2. This shit is really perfect if you have a “Goopy Goblin Gamer Brain ™”. Non-stop action and item combination is just wild.
It’s also the most fun co-op roguelike out there. There’s an incredible modding community and it’s easy to drop in and play with others. It’s also not a super hard game to wrap your head around so there wouldn’t be a massive skill gap for new players vs veterans.
Me and my friends have had our fill over the last few years but there really hasn’t been another game to replace it.
I like RoR2, it is really good, just not in my top 10. Probably because I am not particularly good at it and only tried solo …
I started playing roguelikes with flash Binding of Isaac I bought for 99p in a steam sale, pre-Wrath of the Lamb. I’m still playing Rebirth and its expansions well over a decade later. I’d describe it as the perfect game. Why it shines as opposed where other great roguelites don’t is because of how the items interact with each other. The interaction is key. It’s still pure joy to walk into a room and absolutely melt everything in a second because of a synergy you’ve never seen. And now I think about it, what really makes the roguelike genre a favourite of mine is where every run is a challenge from the game: break me. I’d point at Noita as another game with this philosophy. Being given a random selection of tools and trying to cobble them together into something unstoppable.
I like the more platformer style rogue-lites, a couple favorites that haven’t been mentioned yet are 20XX (rogue-lite tribute/spiritual successor to Mega Man X) and Rogue Legacy (first rogue-lite I ever played, perhaps not as hard as others). For top-down ones I had a bit of fun with Wizard of Legend as well. Never have beaten a roguelike/-lite, but I’ve gotten a decent way into each of the above.
I enjoyed Hades more than FTL and Sts, because of the story progression between runs. Seems like I prefer roguelite than. I’m wondering, if Vampire Survivors is still in this genre with it’s 30 min gameplay loop.
My top three, in no particular order, are: