As someone who has played competitive FPS games at a highish level in multiple games for most of his life I cannot fathom why they ever combined the two in the first place. Like I obviously understand more players and quicker matchmaking, but at the cost of competitive fairness??? No thanks.
Controllers playing against PC is fine without any any aim assist as that is just straight up a disadvantage for the controller player 99.9999% of the time, but the moment they add any aim assist to the controller it kills competitive integrity.
Controller players should only ever go up against other controller players if any amount of aim assistance is turned on and same goes for mouse and keyboard. That shit should not be on consoles and allowed to play against controllers for any reason.
I pretty much dropped Apex Legends entirely just because I wasn’t having fun anymore. I was a diamond player on M+KB and getting laserbeamed from across the map by a controller player just was not fun. Just like I am sure they hated getting hit by a nasty flick only possible with a mouse.
Player input uniformity is one of my biggest gaming gear grinding situations. It’s especially problematic with my favorite genre of games: competitive FPS games.
It depends on the game, really. Some games balance controller and M/K inputs very well, and I appreciate cross-play in those games. In my experience, Apex is particularly bad about their input balancing and gives way too much advantage to controller users, which is why XIM/Cronus cheating is so prevalent.
But, you can definitely still have a competitive and fair balance between inputs. Destiny 2 was actually really good about this, and their weapons team did a LOT of work to make sure that matches between console and PC players felt good even at high levels of play, and they nailed it, imo. I think part of the way Bungie made it work was by making every weapon have intrinsic aim assist, even on M/K. This allowed them to tweak that value for each input mode, so that guns felt right regardless of what you played with.
And the tradeoff wasn’t just “extra bullet magnetism in exchange for slower aim speed”, they also increased the visual recoil and screen shake effects for controller users, so that the aim assist wasn’t completely free, all on a per-weapon basis. Despite Bungie’s flaws and numerous missteps with Destiny, this is something that I don’t think they get nearly enough credit for.
I don’t want to seem dismissive, but I have had this argument 100s of times with an untold number of people over the years. If you ask any pro FPS player who has played at a top level on both they will all tell you that the two should never cross. At least not in any competitive/ranked situations.
It does not matter what you do. If there is anything altering the players inputs whatsoever those players need to be playing against only other people with those same assists and controls.
I was in a CAL-O team back in my CS days. Not saying this to brag (clearly, as CAL-O was definitely not top tier), just to credential my own opinion as I’m no stranger to competitive FPS play, myself.
It does not matter what you do. If there is anything altering the players inputs whatsoever those players need to be playing against only other people with those same assists and controls.
I don’t necessarily agree that the two are incompatible, even for comp/ranked play. Even if you segregate controller and M/K players, the players in the controller pool aren’t necessarily all playing with the same controller (third-party or Pro/Elite controllers are fairly common), and the players in the M/K pool are definitely not all playing with the same peripherals.
Some controller players will have extra buttons, paddles, or gyro aiming that other players won’t; and it’s probably rare to find two players in any M/K lobby using the same mouse. Even in a PC-only lobby, the player with the $400 RGB HyperTactical GX Mountain Dew & Knuckles mouse is going to have an intrinsic advantage over the player using the 2-button mouse that came with the Dell Optiplex he bought at a yard sale. So either way, neither matchmaking pool has players on a truly even playing field to begin with, and somebody’s choice in their input method is likely to give them some sort of advantage over others in their lobby.
If we want to game in a truly fair, competitive environment, then we should do it like sports leagues do and ensure all players are using standard-issued equipment so that the only variable is the individual skill of the players. But there’s a million reasons why that can’t happen though, so we have to accept some amount of compromise to fairness in order to make games playable.
Ultimately, if the concern is “aim assist is too strong on controller”, then I think that’s a quality control issue on the developers’ part, and something that can be remedied. I don’t think the right solution is “split the player base into sequestered factions”, even though it’s an easy solution. Because you also need to consider that the input method isn’t the only factor deciding any encounter between players. If it were, then you could give the top M/K players a controller and they’d skyrocket through the leaderboards. And vise-versa, the top controller players should start landing all their flick shots once they switch to M/K. But they don’t, because just like in traditional sports, familiarity with the equipment is just as important as one’s ability and game knowledge.
Another often-overlooked issue, which nobody wants to hear, is that there 100% exists an attitude among many M/K players of “he’s on controller, so there’s no way he can be better at the game than me”. A lot of times, the balance between controller and M/K is just fine, and players are just finding themselves on the uncomfortable end of the Dunning-Kruger curve. And I’m not saying this as some sort of Holy Paladin of Gamepads or anything; I actually prefer M/K. But quite often I see PC players dismiss the skill of console players, because they equate their skill to their platform selection. I’m not accusing you of this, by the way, just mentioning that this is an attitude I see a lot in competitive circles, but never see anybody actually talk about it.
I’m multitasking and dangerously decaffeinated as I write this, so I’m sorry if I’m rambling and not making any sense lol.
Like conceptually or in a competitive environment? I think gyro aiming sucks to use personally but for some people who cant use traditional user interfaces I understand it can be revolutionary.
I have no problems with it as it is still just an alternative way to translate the humans input into a direct action. It’s no different than a thumb stick in my eyes.
Yeah it’s the computer augmentation of player inputs that I have a problem with. Alternative input methods that are still 1 to 1 with the human player input don’t bother me. I don’t care if it’s gyro or tongue joystick or whatever else.
but at the cost of competitive fairness??? No thanks.
You do realize current CoD is matchmaking based on engagement, right?
If it takes 3 matches of getting stomped to exit the game, it’ll give you an easy win every 3 games.
If the first number changes, so does the second.
That’s not even getting into how buying skins artificially reduces the second number.
Like, after accounting for just those two things, it’s kind of absurd to complain about fairness unless it’s competitive mode, and I’m pretty sure those already have pc/console splits.
Player input uniformity is one of my biggest gaming gear grinding situations. It’s especially problematic with my favorite genre of games: competitive FPS games.
That’s how it was split…
A PC controller would be matched up like a console controller. Now pc controllers will be grouped with PC mouse players…
You typed a lot but don’t seem to know what you’re talking about about bud
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As someone who has played competitive FPS games at a highish level in multiple games for most of his life I cannot fathom why they ever combined the two in the first place. Like I obviously understand more players and quicker matchmaking, but at the cost of competitive fairness??? No thanks.
Controllers playing against PC is fine without any any aim assist as that is just straight up a disadvantage for the controller player 99.9999% of the time, but the moment they add any aim assist to the controller it kills competitive integrity.
Controller players should only ever go up against other controller players if any amount of aim assistance is turned on and same goes for mouse and keyboard. That shit should not be on consoles and allowed to play against controllers for any reason.
I pretty much dropped Apex Legends entirely just because I wasn’t having fun anymore. I was a diamond player on M+KB and getting laserbeamed from across the map by a controller player just was not fun. Just like I am sure they hated getting hit by a nasty flick only possible with a mouse.
Player input uniformity is one of my biggest gaming gear grinding situations. It’s especially problematic with my favorite genre of games: competitive FPS games.
I mean who really cares for pub matches? If you are worried about competitiveness then play pugs. Team stacking and pub stomping isn’t competitive
It depends on the game, really. Some games balance controller and M/K inputs very well, and I appreciate cross-play in those games. In my experience, Apex is particularly bad about their input balancing and gives way too much advantage to controller users, which is why XIM/Cronus cheating is so prevalent.
But, you can definitely still have a competitive and fair balance between inputs. Destiny 2 was actually really good about this, and their weapons team did a LOT of work to make sure that matches between console and PC players felt good even at high levels of play, and they nailed it, imo. I think part of the way Bungie made it work was by making every weapon have intrinsic aim assist, even on M/K. This allowed them to tweak that value for each input mode, so that guns felt right regardless of what you played with.
And the tradeoff wasn’t just “extra bullet magnetism in exchange for slower aim speed”, they also increased the visual recoil and screen shake effects for controller users, so that the aim assist wasn’t completely free, all on a per-weapon basis. Despite Bungie’s flaws and numerous missteps with Destiny, this is something that I don’t think they get nearly enough credit for.
I don’t want to seem dismissive, but I have had this argument 100s of times with an untold number of people over the years. If you ask any pro FPS player who has played at a top level on both they will all tell you that the two should never cross. At least not in any competitive/ranked situations.
It does not matter what you do. If there is anything altering the players inputs whatsoever those players need to be playing against only other people with those same assists and controls.
I was in a CAL-O team back in my CS days. Not saying this to brag (clearly, as CAL-O was definitely not top tier), just to credential my own opinion as I’m no stranger to competitive FPS play, myself.
I don’t necessarily agree that the two are incompatible, even for comp/ranked play. Even if you segregate controller and M/K players, the players in the controller pool aren’t necessarily all playing with the same controller (third-party or Pro/Elite controllers are fairly common), and the players in the M/K pool are definitely not all playing with the same peripherals.
Some controller players will have extra buttons, paddles, or gyro aiming that other players won’t; and it’s probably rare to find two players in any M/K lobby using the same mouse. Even in a PC-only lobby, the player with the $400 RGB HyperTactical GX Mountain Dew & Knuckles mouse is going to have an intrinsic advantage over the player using the 2-button mouse that came with the Dell Optiplex he bought at a yard sale. So either way, neither matchmaking pool has players on a truly even playing field to begin with, and somebody’s choice in their input method is likely to give them some sort of advantage over others in their lobby.
If we want to game in a truly fair, competitive environment, then we should do it like sports leagues do and ensure all players are using standard-issued equipment so that the only variable is the individual skill of the players. But there’s a million reasons why that can’t happen though, so we have to accept some amount of compromise to fairness in order to make games playable.
Ultimately, if the concern is “aim assist is too strong on controller”, then I think that’s a quality control issue on the developers’ part, and something that can be remedied. I don’t think the right solution is “split the player base into sequestered factions”, even though it’s an easy solution. Because you also need to consider that the input method isn’t the only factor deciding any encounter between players. If it were, then you could give the top M/K players a controller and they’d skyrocket through the leaderboards. And vise-versa, the top controller players should start landing all their flick shots once they switch to M/K. But they don’t, because just like in traditional sports, familiarity with the equipment is just as important as one’s ability and game knowledge.
Another often-overlooked issue, which nobody wants to hear, is that there 100% exists an attitude among many M/K players of “he’s on controller, so there’s no way he can be better at the game than me”. A lot of times, the balance between controller and M/K is just fine, and players are just finding themselves on the uncomfortable end of the Dunning-Kruger curve. And I’m not saying this as some sort of Holy Paladin of Gamepads or anything; I actually prefer M/K. But quite often I see PC players dismiss the skill of console players, because they equate their skill to their platform selection. I’m not accusing you of this, by the way, just mentioning that this is an attitude I see a lot in competitive circles, but never see anybody actually talk about it.
I’m multitasking and dangerously decaffeinated as I write this, so I’m sorry if I’m rambling and not making any sense lol.
What do you think about gyro aiming?
Like conceptually or in a competitive environment? I think gyro aiming sucks to use personally but for some people who cant use traditional user interfaces I understand it can be revolutionary.
I have no problems with it as it is still just an alternative way to translate the humans input into a direct action. It’s no different than a thumb stick in my eyes.
Yeah, I meant in the context of competition. It’s not aim assist, but with practice it can be quite competitive vs the mouse.
I agree, it should be fair game for competitive play, unlike aim assist.
Yeah it’s the computer augmentation of player inputs that I have a problem with. Alternative input methods that are still 1 to 1 with the human player input don’t bother me. I don’t care if it’s gyro or tongue joystick or whatever else.
You do realize current CoD is matchmaking based on engagement, right?
If it takes 3 matches of getting stomped to exit the game, it’ll give you an easy win every 3 games.
If the first number changes, so does the second.
That’s not even getting into how buying skins artificially reduces the second number.
Like, after accounting for just those two things, it’s kind of absurd to complain about fairness unless it’s competitive mode, and I’m pretty sure those already have pc/console splits.
That’s how it was split…
A PC controller would be matched up like a console controller. Now pc controllers will be grouped with PC mouse players…
You typed a lot but don’t seem to know what you’re talking about about bud
I can almost guarantee you I know more about the topic and high level fps gaming in general than you do.
you’re currently engaging with one of THE biggest “know-nothing know-it-all”s on Lemmy, fyi.
Ah thanks for the warning. I won’t waste my time then. Based I their first comment that does appear to be true for this topic at the very least lol.
That would mean a lot more if it wasn’t in the same reply chain as you clearly not knowing what you’re talking about about…